[Dolorous Menhir]

As noted above - Dujek's force was exposed after they successful attacked the unprepared traps. If they had pulled back the city they would've done so under condor assault they could barely match. If they had sat where they were, same story.

So Dujek attacked the city, figuring if he was going to take losses he might as well do so by attacking, and doing so in the protection of an urban setting (by which I mean the effectiveness of the Kell Hunters and the condors was reduced in the streets, not that street fighting is easy).

[buddhacat]

Bl1nder;151429 said:

This whole post is rather pointless. Lets face it, Dujek lost half his army not because he was a bad tactician, not because he had KMC to fight against, and not even because WJ died, it was all because he had to die and leave a broken army behaind him, which in its desperation should look up to a Bridgeburner (Paran) to lead them, and now Paran has his own army, all the other stuff about tactic and the lot is completley irrelevant

Riiiiiiiight. So, don't bother talking about any of these books, just read the last few pages of the 10th book, the Crippled God, because after all that's what it's all about anyway.

ObSheesh: Sheesh.

[wishbone]

True, the withdraw option might have opened them up to further attacks, but a good military commander would probably have taken the chance anyway. There was always the possibility that the Condors would have stayed close to defend the city because the Seer would have been worried about the rest of the army (brood & WJ) approaching. Or he would have risked withdrawing because he had the Black Moranth able to fly some kind of cover over his troops.

What a good leader would NOT have done was potentially throw away the lives of their soldiers and the ability of his army to fight another day in a risky, one shot only, with no ability to escape - gamble to take out the seer...

What would he actually have accomplished? To kill the Seer 2-3 days earlier than if he had waited for the rest of the army to arrive?

Had he withdrawn & waited he would have had as reinforcements:

WJ with 4-5K of the Host
Brood with his army
Trakes Legion
Grey Swords
Barghast nation
Tiste Andii & Rake
T'lan Imass

This force would probably have made short work of the Seer with minimal casualties on their side.

NOTE: all this is still just arguing over what a real world military commander would have done in Dujek's place. Im actually not trying to imply Dujek was incompetent at all.

[Dark Mac]

Whiskeyjack, the Imass, Trake's Legion, and the Grey Swords were all already there, I thought. Maybe not the Grey Swords, but certainly the others. As mentioned earlier, part of the reason he went early was to save Whiskeyjack.

[wishbone]

Dark Mac;151562 said:

Whiskeyjack, the Imass, Trake's Legion, and the Grey Swords were all already there, I thought. Maybe not the Grey Swords, but certainly the others. As mentioned earlier, part of the reason he went early was to save Whiskeyjack.

They were all actually racing to try & save Dujek - well some of them were anyway - not the other way around.

The only people to get to Coral ahead of Dujek & his half of the army were the Bridgeburners.

[Dark Mac]

wishbone;151564 said:

They were all actually racing to try & save Dujek - well some of them were anyway - not the other way around.

The only people to get to Coral ahead of Dujek & his half of the army were the Bridgeburners.

Really? I could've sworn that I remembered Trake's Legion taking heavy losses against the KCCM, and I thought that the Imass had their meeting with Itkovian before Dujek's troops started dying. I suppose I could be wrong though.

[Imperial Historian]

Dujek was in coral before trakes legion and co arrived, but upon their arrival the k'chai appeared to challenge them, whilst this was going on dujeks troops were still fighting and dying, it is specifically stated that fighting the k'chain outside of the city was done so that dujek's army inside the city wouldn't die.

Dujek's decision to attack the city was addressed in MOI, dujek claims that taking out 10000 troops and 10-12 mages and a septarch for the army is a fair trade, after doing that he is left in an undefensible position with condors looking to attack so he decides to go in.

Oponn seems to have been involved in this decision, and well it was necessary for the story so I cant knock dujek doing it, even if it probably wasnt the best idea in the world.

[Abyss]

Imperial Historian;151764 said:

...Oponn seems to have been involved in this decision...

How do you figure that?

- Abyss, curious.

[Whelp]

Abyss;151845 said:

How do you figure that?

- Abyss, curious.

Remember when Korlat and Whiskeyjack turn away from Coral - a few seconds before Dujek's army takes off, there is Oponn (or its coin?) mentioned.

[Illuyankas]

That whole melodramatic "The coin spun, from Lady... to Lord" stuff.

[wishbone]

Illuyankas;151903 said:

That whole melodramatic "The coin spun, from Lady... to Lord" stuff.

Yep, I remember that part of the story...

I took that to meaning Oponn had a hand in the rest of the army not realising Dujek was about to go into Coral. Had Whiskeyjack & Korlat stayed an extra few seconds they would have seen the first flights take off and maybe Korlat could have gone into Dragonform and kicked butt to give Dujek a fighting chance inside the city.

As it was they only realised (maybe) hours later when the fighting was already underway.

I didnt think Oponn influenced Dujek to make the choice to go into Coral in the first place though.

Just my thoughts!

[amphibian]

Disclaimer: I had to throw this in somewhere and this military analysis thread seemed the closest fit.

As I'm becoming much more acquainted with military history at a college level (on my own personal time) I see multiple parallels between Erikson's fiction and the great military events of actual history.

The best example I can pick out is Coltaine's forced retreat from a numerically superior force is relatively analogous to Chief Joseph's fighting withdrawal of 800 Nez Perce from 2,000 U.S. calvary soldiers over 1,700 miles of rough and moutainous terrain. Both groups displayed an unbelievable amount of strategy, knowledge and pure grit in evading and defeating their pursuers repeatedly before being stopped short of their final destination. Coltaine was killed just outside the city walls after a running battle and Joseph was forced to surrender 40 miles short of the Canadian border after a 5 day battle, in which the Nez Perce had no food or blankets.

Also, both campaigns would likely have been victorious if the burden of refugees and the infirm had been lesser.

What other parallels can you pick out?

[Shadow_God]

The Battle of Pale reminded me somewhat of the Civil War "Battle of the Crater" - the Union Army, while besieging St. Petersburg, Virginia, created a underground mine which ended up exploding at the wrong time and killing a significant number of Union soldiers, and a battle was subsequently fought in and around the massive crater. The IX Corps, which moved down into the crater while advancing on the Confederate position, was absolutely slaughtered. That assault was led by a colored regiment, possible because the Union commanders saw it as expendable.

It's not a direct parallel, of course (the Union army did not take the city), but the whole mine debacle was reminiscent, as was the eradication of a large number of politically "expendable" soldiers.

[flea]

amphibian;152136 said:

The best example I can pick out is Coltaine's forced retreat from a numerically superior force is relatively analogous to Chief Joseph's fighting withdrawal of 800 Nez Perce from 2,000 U.S. calvary soldiers over 1,700 miles of rough and moutainous terrain.

Have you read a book on this subject? Sounds interesting.

Note: PMs and search functions do not work.

[Imperial Historian]

Moved posts on problems with PM's here to admin forum.

[wishbone]

amphibian;152136 said:

As I'm becoming much more acquainted with military history at a college level (on my own personal time) I see multiple parallels between Erikson's fiction and the great military events of actual history.
.
.
.
What other parallels can you pick out?

Ditto, like you I have started comaring military history with the stuff Erikson has written.

An example I came up with was the encirclement of Pormqual's army at the end of the Chain of Dogs and I think it has a lot of similarity with Hannibal's victory in the battle Cannae.

http://en.wikipedia....attle_of_cannae

In short, both Hannibals/Korbolo Dom's armies gave way before the advancing Romans/Malazans who didnt realise that it was a trap and kept pursuing. The trap was sprung when they were encircled by the opposing army and in the Roman's case, massacred on the battlefield, whilst the Malazans were crucified along the Aren way.

Incidentally, the whole crucification of the Malazan army is also similar to what happened to Spartacus' troops after they were beaten by the Romans, Spartacus' troops were crucified along the Appian Way on the road to Rome.

[Whelp]

wishbone;152887 said:

An example I came up with was the encirclement of Pormqual's army at the end of the Chain of Dogs and I think it has a lot of similarity with Hannibal's victory in the battle Cannae.

Tha major difference being that Hannibal was quite outnumbered (well, his footmen were, anyway), if I remember correctly :nitpick:

[frank]

There will always be another battle from reality that is similar to the one you write about. That doesn't mean you've haerd about or copied it in any way.

On the other hand it's also a possibility that you have.

[amphibian]

frank;153070 said:

There will always be another battle from reality that is similar to the one you write about. That doesn't mean you've haerd about or copied it in any way.

On the other hand it's also a possibility that you have.

Considering that Erikson has formal training in both an anthropology and archaeology, it is by no means a stretch to assume that he is indeed drawing from real-world military history. However, we are not accusing him of plagiarism or unoriginality - quite the opposite actually. Using the real-world history as a springboard adds further enjoyment to the discerning reader and may even provide some education to someone looking in the right places.

Whelp;153041 said:

Tha major difference being that Hannibal was quite outnumbered (well, his footmen were, anyway), if I remember correctly :nitpick:

Hannibal had elephants, man. Is it not written that one elephant is like ten thousand people? All hungry and big and grey?

[BridgeBurner]

wishbone;151558 said:

What a good leader would NOT have done was potentially throw away the lives of their soldiers and the ability of his army to fight another day in a risky, one shot only, with no ability to escape - gamble to take out the seer...

What would he actually have accomplished? To kill the Seer 2-3 days earlier than if he had waited for the rest of the army to arrive?

Had he withdrawn & waited he would have had as reinforcements:

WJ with 4-5K of the Host
Brood with his army
Trakes Legion
Grey Swords
Barghast nation
Tiste Andii & Rake
T'lan Imass

This force would probably have made short work of the Seer with minimal casualties on their side.

NOTE: all this is still just arguing over what a real world military commander would have done in Dujek's place. Im actually not trying to imply Dujek was incompetent at all.

You're forgetting one thing: Dujek could not afford to dig in and wait for the other contingencies to arrive, simply because the Kell Hunters and the Condors wouldn't leave him alone long enough. No able defensive commander would leave the chance of decimating part of the other army that easily pass by, especially knowing what was coming days after this group.

So instead of waiting for the Pannion troops to start decimating his remaining forces, he did what a good tactician would do in my opinion, by taking the fight to closer quarters.

I don't think choosing the battleground and taking the initiative is a tactical error in this case, really. It seems more like Dujek decided that if the Malazans would have to die (and don't forget this army has been feeling defeated in GotM already), they'd take as many enemies with them as they could manage...

On a more general note, Dujek won his reputation in the years before GotM even started, by conquering half a continent.