[Onrack the breakable]

"The hideous causalty lists of the American Civil War owed much of their size to the fact that soldiers were fighting with rifles [rifled barrels give longer range-up to half a mile] using tactics suited to smoothbores [100 yard range & Napoleon tactics]. When a defensive line occupied field entrenchments- which soldiers learned to dig fairly early in the game- a direct frontal assault became almost impossible. It took the generals a long time to learn that a new approach was needed. [Probably because most of them died leading heroic charges].

Since so many big fights are hopefully on the way I'm hoping we don't keep seeing this sort of thing. Onearms host wiped out in Corel like a bunch of lame ducks -type thing. There is the misunderstanding especially in fantasy and fiction that high casualty lists indicated a high caliber of commanding officer. The only thing high casualty list by itself indicates is the commanding officer was good at giving commands and having them followed (disciplined, well behaved troops in other words)- no matter how idiotic and suicidal those orders are.

If Korbolo Dom the new malazan first sword leads any armys in battle we can pretty much assume thats sort of what will happen for his troops. Casualty lists.

Tavore appears to have strategy and tactics similar to Temul which seems good. But Temul is the only officer in the 14th that has that sort of brilliance. Keneb seems more of a plodder but at least he's a competent plodder. What worries me is that without Temul the 14th is in pretty pathetic state for Fists/Generals. Maybe Fiddler will be promoted to Fist or something but there are still major lacks and Hood knows, Fid is no genius. Who else is officer material? Faradan Sort is almost guaranteed to be a fist if she survives much longer, I cant think of anyone that even comes close to her for officer material. Pores might make a decent captain or another plodding Fist like Keneb. For all his faults Tene Baralt was a fist that could command on the run, unlike Blistig who seemed more the barely competent sergeant promoted way beyond his abilitys like "Fist" Gamet. So is the 14th command structure really in such pathetic state or are the gods just gonna step in and take over?

Just discussing military stuff in general and hoping the next books have alot of battles. BH didn't have much in that way to speak of but I'm hoping the pace picks up.

[fan_83]

they were outmanuvered and out powered by the enemy.. tell me how thats a sign of bad leadership?

throughout the books its been said that onearm is one of the best tactician of the empire and thats said by the troops who have been fighting for the empire for years..

they are the one who knows the situation best and htey are the best judge of a general

[Onrack the breakable]

fan_83;150232 said:

they were outmanuvered and out powered by the enemy.. tell me how thats a sign of bad leadership?

throughout the books its been said that onearm is one of the best tactician of the empire and thats said by the troops who have been fighting for the empire for years..

they are the one who knows the situation best and htey are the best judge of a general

1. Outmanuvered and out powered and dead is the very definition of bad leadership. How can you question this?

2. Its been said. On the other hand, what we've actually seen of Onearm is/was pathetic.

3. They are dead so that sort of shows what they know, right?

[Hume]

I can see it now...

wait for it...

! HIGH FIST KINDLY !

only half joking though

But in regards to OneArm just remember the battle at capustan where as the bulk of the Seerdomin and Bekatlikes or whatever (the soldeirs of the pannion, not the peasant army) were still beseiging the city from the south side. One arm decimated that host when it was close to his size or about the same when these were all well trained soldiers as well. It was described in great detail but it that is one that happened on screen.

[Hume]

oh and for related sort of reading go here..http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showpo...017&postcount=1
albeit, it is my opinion and also written before Bonehunters. Also written before the forums changed so there html coding is a little off in some places.

If anyone wants they can feel free to uptade it.

[frank]

I got a question for you Onrack. I was wondering exactly how a great leader would have handeled Coral?

Onearm was stuck in a joined operation with personal orders to stop the enemy. The tactic used was a result of several factions with slightly different goals and very different ways of executing them. If anything, he made good use of what he had in a difficult situation. Cause they DO happen wether you are competent or not. It's how you handle the situation that is important.
And even if he was outpowered at first, he wasn't outmanuvered. Becase they won and even had a much smaller casualty number than the enemy.

Rake on the other side decided to skip most of the fight and drown his citadel even though the Andii alone must have been close to, or even more than enough to win the fight by themselves. And you know what? I still count him as a great tactican and leader because of what he has done before throughout the ages.

Thats all from the Norwegian jury

[Bl1nder]

If Fiddler gets promoted to Fist, I would start looking around for Armagedon . Doubt it, Fid is a sergeant nothing more. As for 14th's leaderiship, I dont agree. See those Fists are there to follow Tavore's orders, they dont have to be briliant millitary commanders, they need to follow orders, and to make the people who must follow them. Fists are not the high command of the army, so I dont see your concerns

[Hume]

@ B|1nder

Yes but normally a High fist or Fist does command an army ala; Coltaine, Dujek. So Should Tavore die one of those Fist's is expected to step up to plate and command the whole army. So eventually they need to be good commanders.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

You have to bear in mind that at Coral they were assaulting a city which existed as the enemy's last bastion - their last stand where they are always going to fight harder and be more determined. On top of that, these warriors are fighting for food- what they kill is what ensure their survival, so they have the added bonus of desperation to the standard fight or die thing, and their training as well. These were the Pannion's select troops, and there was also the worry of attack from the skies. Onearm didnt do too bad a job of it, I would say, given what he was up against.

[Battalion]

I kind of agree with Onrack, in that we as readers see very little tactical masterstrokes from Dujek. He was however a good leader because the men trusted him and knew that basically he was in it with them. He died trying to destoy the plauge, and thus save his army, going into the temple himself. (Do not ask others what you would not willingly do yourself).

If you compare him with another High Fist, Pormquil ... well, enough said.

[Abyss]

Dujek had the foresight to deny the Pannions their own fortifications on the cliffs, thus saving Whiskeyjack's remaining army from an ambush.

The original intention was for Rake and co to deal with the heavy sorcerous stuff like massive superfast undead lizards with lasers on their heads... i mean swords for hands, but the Malazans got all honourable and went in first.
And even then, if they had had a few more cussers, or Kallor hand't taken out Tayshrenn, they might have been less shredded by the Kell Hunters.

Another point is that by the time we enter the story, we're supposed to take the author's word for it that Dujek was a great leader, because events were going to spin out of his control in spite of his history.

- Abyss, still thinks the lasers would have been cool.

[Cause]

you say been overpowered is a sign of bad leadership. But when a man with a sword is attacked with a tank leadership is not the quality he needs. You cant blame dujek for his men being unable to go face to face with kell hunters.

That said its difficult to understand some of the moves made by dujek in the book. He sent an advanced force ahead to deny the pannions the tunnels. When that force needed rescuing he abandoned the rest of the army (brood) to rescue it. Getting in more trouble. He advanced without the tiste brood the barghast or the rhivi. But if you reread the book you see that their is as much a political side to all the actiosn as well as the diffretn groups diffrent agendas etc.

[Onos]

Most causualties in human (pre gunpowder) conflict come AFTER one side has broken moral and decides to run away. But the Malaz world has a lot more either undead/powerful creatures that have basically no morale check, and thus wont break, or really well trained troops that have an almost unrealistically high morale. This messes up the casualty rate from low for the victors to high. A good commander is as much a study of human reactions as a tactician. (ex, knowing that soldiers that think they are surrounded are more likely to run even though if they held their ground they would likely prevail, aka Hannibal at the battle of Canae vs the Romans)

It wasnt the regular troops Dujek had trouble against, those broke against him. But the Krell and the condors... they really didnt stand a chance once they lost the cussers. No commander could have prevailed in Dujeks situation, even if they had exact knowledge of the nature of the foe, which they didnt.

[Abyss]

Plus Dujek thought he was leaving the army under Whiskeyjack, allegedly an even better comander.

- Abyss, oops, that didn't work out so hot.

[Onrack the breakable]

I agree more with Onos more than most anyone else so far. The point about moral check especially against undead. But a good military leader never would base survival on such things as MAYBE breaking the enemies morale, or MAYBE at the last moment finding T'lan Imass allies, that MAYBE will kill the KCCM undead for you. See what I'm saying here? Far too many maybes.

But my point is this: If you are going to commit mass suicide there is no point to having a leader, just be lemmings and run off the nearest cliff. The fact that someone is so charasmatic the lemmings flock to his banner has nothing to do with GOOD LEADERSHIP. Thats just charisma and human stupidity.

An example from another post is a good leader would do everything to insure his sword troops never went up against tanks one on one. Instead dig tank traps with hidden bonfires (hidden oil flasks, etc) and simply roast the tank crews and win even though they never directly attacked the tank. See what I'm saying here?

[Onrack the breakable]

Ok, anyone can be a brilliant armchair general given 20/20 hindsight. But what especially troubles me is Onearm apparently never gave thought to anti KCCM tactics even after having over 80% casualties to his host, and the fact that any survived at all was simple luck.

I am thinking of KCCM undead, some of these tactics will work much better against living KCCM as well.

1. Caltrops- designed specifically to hinder the mobility of undead KCCM, has special barbs that penetrate undead gristle to bind and hamper the action of KCCM feet. Living KCCM would not simply be slowed down but would become sitting ducks. Even dead KCCM would be drastically slowed, preventing them from their overpowering attacks.

2. Oversize, squad serviced ballistae and minature (Trell type) fast firing catapults. Once slowed these guys simply pound the KCCM to bone dust.

3. Moranth munitions. They had these and used them to good effect. But a good commander would never depend on a single solution, especially when supply is no longer even close to certain.

4. In a city like Corel, there would be a doctrine to occupy secure stone buildings forcing the KCCM to slow down and come thru doors single file. Sort of a tank trap type idea. If KCCM are so powerful they can knock thru stone walls, then also develop a mage/sapper team that can reinforce walls such that not even a god can penetrate.

5. Lots more molotov cocktail type strategies, etc, etc. After all, if the undead ligaments, tendons, etc are burned away by mundane fire the bones will simply fall apart right?

6. If all else fails, assault in-mass specifically targeting the joints. Normal weapons may not be able to cut thru KCCM undead bones but the joints are always weakest. Plus the bones are held together by cartiledge, ligaments, and gristle, much weaker than bone and if enough of that is cut away- the bones will simply fall apart.

1-3,and 5 are pretty much open field tactics, and 4 would be for close quarters. Idea 6 is last resort type thing. I thought of this in a matter of minutes. I'm sure a competent general and his staff would give more than a few minutes thought to such a catasrophic event and come up with even better solutions. But no, they just sit on their fat arses moping about their failures without even wondering WHY they failed. Lack of sound leadership and planning. No plan survives contact with the enemy but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have any plan at all or any strategies. Thats just trying to bullshat your way thru. That is my main point here. There is a difference between leadership and bullshat.

[Illuyankas]

Considering they have not only Itkovian, Gruntle and Hetan to ask about the KCCM, but K'rul as well on strategic advice on how to deal with them, simply trusting Silverfox's assertion that 'the Imass will deal with them' was pretty silly.

[Abyss]

Hmmm... i love a good fantasy lit tactics discussion...


1. Caltrops- in the first fight we saw against Kell Hunters, one stepped on Gruntle, impaled him, and then proceeded to run, full speed, no problem, with him stuck to the underside of its foot. So those would have to be some Godzilla size caltrops...

2. Oversize, squad serviced ballistae and minature (Trell type) fast firing catapults. - You have to hit one first. Probably multiple times. And reload before it runs, REALLY fast at you, and turns you or your squad into bird-cage liner.

3. Moranth munitions - agreed, and as for your single solution point, yeah, they really should have planned better, but at the time Silverfox and the Ay were supposedly taking care of the problem. Oops.

4. In a city like Corel, there would be a doctrine to occupy secure stone buildings... - Assumes you have time. Keep in mind the KC were defending the city, not the other way around. The Host had some success with dropping buildlings on them, but they were also fighting Pannion troops at the same time. Hence Dujek's Untan bodyguards who got him in a building to avoid the Kell but died fighting heavy infantry.

5. Lots more molotov cocktail type strategies... - yes, but probably not quickly enough. Since an undead doesn't feel pain, you'd end up with a flaming undead lizard on your ass, as opposed to just an undead one.

Gruntle and co got their butts kicked pre-Capustan.

The Grey Swords had some success with their lasso from horseback, but even that was limited and against one or two Kell. (and the Host had limited cavalry, being mostly infantry)

The Seguleh were effective in a 3 v 1 situation, but in the big finish in the Seer's castle, 1 v 1 Thurule and Senu against Kell, they were losing before Moon's Spawn parked itself.

We see in the MT prologue that even Andii troops, prepared and armed with sorcery with dragon back-up, were decimated by Kell Hunters (albeit live ones).

My point being, this was a lose-lose scenario. The Host were outpowered, under informed, and few tactics were going to help.

- Abyss, would have just gotten out of there and nuked the site from orbit.

[Illuyankas]

I'm not so much talking about the tactics Gruntle et al failed to use, more that they met the KCCM and could tell everyone else what they were going to face, but didn't. Also, the KCCM Senu and Thurule fought were superior Kell Hunters to the rank and file (descriptions of ornate armour, etc) and may have been in better condition/faster.

Oh, and unless they're in a pit they can't escape from, fire is a big no-no for zombie anything.

[Onrack the breakable]

I'm still saying that a competently led host of Bhockrala or Ewoks would've put up a more creditable fight than Onearms Host. There's no way around that Abyss.

Most of your points Abyss are based on refuting my #1 caltrop idea. We can go on and on, but lets just say Gruntle was not made of steel and not designed specifically to immobilize/slow KCCM. Despite all that, Gruntle did a good job slowing down the KCCM. The real problem with that method is getting people willing to perform as the designated "Gruntle".

What about something like a portable Ewok operated flying tree trunk, like some types of rams. No KCCM would survive that once immobilized. There are more ways than simple mundane caltrops to immobilize KCCM. That was just an example.