[Silencer]

Oh, please no! Don't start the "why is religion sacred" argument again, Terez.
We all know plenty of people will turn up to say "I've never noticed". And it will deteriorate from there.

[Osric]

Terez, on Oct 7 2008, 07:45 AM, said:

And to make THREE posts in a row (I must be a spammer or something)...

I realized that my retort might sound a bit flippant. So I'll put forth a couple of questions to clarify my point. (This topic came up briefly in another one of Shin's well-meaning but pointless attempts to have a "nice" religion thread.)

Why is it that everything in the world can be discussed, except for religion? There are many of us who are diametrically opposed in politics, and bump heads often in the Discussions forum. No one asks, "why does every thread about politics have to turn into an attack on the party you don't support?" It's a discussion forum, and that's what it's for: to discuss the merits and faults of our beliefs.

Why is it that, whenever religious beliefs are questioned, it's always taken as a personal attack, even when the arguments are clearly dealing with the belief and the arguments given in favor of it, and not the person?

Why is it that people think that religious beliefs should be respected? Why should I respect religious belief? I think that it is illogical, the product of brainwashing, and dependent on the very resistance to questioning that we see here. I have no respect for religious belief. I have respect for certain (certainly not all) religious individuals, and I'm not about to show up at anyone's church and tell them their beliefs are stupid. Nor would I start an argument about religion in a religious person's home if I was a guest there. But I'm also not about to hold my tongue on my religious opinions on a Discussion forum on the off chance that someone will get their feelings hurt, nor do I expect anyone to hold their tongue about their own religious beliefs (though it's generally expected on a Discussion forum that there be something to discuss - in other words, an argument). The fact that there is no logical argument that supports religious belief is hardly the fault of the atheists/agnostics.

People take it personally because if you're religious then you're basing your life on stuff you can't prove, stuff you can't see. You see, if you believe in something that generally makes no sense, then you're obviously going to be insecure about it. There's a good reason the word "faith" is a synonim for religion.

I have always seen arguing with people about their religion as a pointless excersise. Neither sides of the arguments can bring up arguments based on facts. Even athiests that believe we evolved can't back it up 100%. So the arguments all lead down the same road, what I believe, what you believe, arguments based on stuff nobody can prove.

Besides, look at why people believe in the illogical fact that there's a "creator" that made us and watches over us. It doesn't make sense does it, it goes against everything we learned and it goes against how we think in general, it's human nature to base conclusions on experience and provable facts. Hit stone against head, head hurts, next time I know not to hit stone against head. So why do people believe in a certain religion? Well because we're scared, we want to know what happens when we die, we want to have a purpose in life or we feel insignificant. I'm perfectly aware of this and I still believe that there is some greater purpose to our existance. I just accept that there is no way of finding out what it is, nobody has any proof or a way of showing me what it's all about.

[Traveller]

Atheist, me.

I remember having to recite the 'lords prayer' at primary school, and having to go to church occasionally... and even then, looking at the other people around me praying/singing hymns, and wondering what on earth they were all doing.

I've learned a lot about religion and belief since, but I feel the same as I did then - i still don't understand how why rational, educated people feel the need for religion. Different religions just seem to be different 'skins' on the same thing to me.

Anyway, I've seen how these threads can get a bit out of hand... the past 'discussions' on religion kind of back my opinion that it is a subject that can't ever be discussed or argued to a satisfactory conclusion for anyone involved, due to the very nature of belief. I could use a few obvious examples, but I don't want to get accused of being anti-religious - just because I don't feel the need for it, or really understand it, doesn't mean I don't appreciate or respect the views of others who do.

I just wanted to add a brief comment, rather than leaving an anonymous vote.

[Terez]

Osric, on Oct 7 2008, 02:17 AM, said:

People take it personally because if you're religious then you're basing your life on stuff you can't prove, stuff you can't see. You see, if you believe in something that generally makes no sense, then you're obviously going to be insecure about it. There's a good reason the word "faith" is a synonim for religion.

Like I said - religion depends on resistance to questioning.

Osric said:

I have always seen arguing with people about their religion as a pointless excersise. Neither sides of the arguments can bring up arguments based on facts. Even athiests that believe we evolved can't back it up 100%. So the arguments all lead down the same road, what I believe, what you believe, arguments based on stuff nobody can prove.

Hmmm, nope. Religion has no evidence for it whatsoever, while things such as evolution have a great deal of evidence in their favor. You can't equate religion to evolution just because there are a few gaps in the theory - there are quite a few aspects of the theory of evolution that are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[Silencer]

Terez - the problem is that people who believe think that everything is evidence for God's existence/whatever other deity.

From my perspective, a lot of religious people get defensive simply because they see the weakness of their position. They have no evidence, no proof, and they know that. So it's a knee-jerk reaction that any perceived criticism could bring their world tumbling down - hence they need to get seriously defensive.

That's just one possibility.

EDIT:
On the other hand, they also possibly can't understand why someone wouldn't believe, the way that Traveller or I can't really see why otherwise intelligent people believe in something unprovable.

[Terez]

Silencer, on Oct 7 2008, 03:06 AM, said:

Terez - the problem is that people who believe think that everything is evidence for God's existence/whatever other deity.

I understand that, but that doesn't make it logical, nor is it a position deserving of respect.

Silencer said:

From my perspective, a lot of religious people get defensive simply because they see the weakness of their position. They have no evidence, no proof, and they know that. So it's a knee-jerk reaction that any perceived criticism could bring their world tumbling down - hence they need to get seriously defensive.

Yet if they didn't get defensive, then there would be no offensive religion debates on this forum.

Silencer said:

On the other hand, they also possibly can't understand why someone wouldn't believe, the way that Traveller or I can't really see why otherwise intelligent people believe in something unprovable.

I don't think these viewpoints are comparable, either. Pascal's Wager only works if you're sure you've got the right god, after all, and that you know something about his supposedly unknowable intentions, and why would anyone believe that? The answer to that is pretty simple, imo: we believe it because we have always believed it. There's not very much logic involved there. So on the one hand, we have a belief system that inherently fosters ignorance, and on the other hand, we have a belief system that is based on empirical evidence. With that in mind, I don't think the bolded words are appropriate.

[Osric]

Terez, on Oct 7 2008, 10:02 AM, said:

Osric, on Oct 7 2008, 02:17 AM, said:

People take it personally because if you're religious then you're basing your life on stuff you can't prove, stuff you can't see. You see, if you believe in something that generally makes no sense, then you're obviously going to be insecure about it. There's a good reason the word "faith" is a synonim for religion.

Like I said - religion depends on resistance to questioning.

Osric said:

I have always seen arguing with people about their religion as a pointless excersise. Neither sides of the arguments can bring up arguments based on facts. Even athiests that believe we evolved can't back it up 100%. So the arguments all lead down the same road, what I believe, what you believe, arguments based on stuff nobody can prove.

Hmmm, nope. Religion has no evidence for it whatsoever, while things such as evolution have a great deal of evidence in their favor. You can't equate religion to evolution just because there are a few gaps in the theory - there are quite a few aspects of the theory of evolution that are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

While I personally agree with you and evolution does have more proof to back it up, it still isn't a 100% proven theory, I don't know if it will ever be. People that believe in the bible will quote stuff from the bible and use that as proof. I do agree that quoting stuff from a book written by god knows who (no pun intended) is not the same as quoting actual scientists, but to religious people it is, cos they believe in it.

"Silencer" said:

Terez - the problem is that people who believe think that everything is evidence for God's existence/whatever other deity.

And like I said Silencer, why do people believe in it? I've always asked myself that, but I think it's because of the same reason you mentioned, just general insecurity. Religion does have merrits, importance of family, morals in general, happiness and contendness. It's just a bit outdated, and it has a lot of bad things too like being really closed minded about sex, sexuality, women in general.

One thing that we can all agree on is that as long as people keep their religion and beliefs to themselfs it wouldn't bother anyone. Like the woman Frookenhauer mentioned that believed in fairies.. Is it offensive to anyone that she does? It might seem dumb to people, but it wouldn't bother anyone. Problem is, that woman is in the goverment, she passes laws based on her belief in fairies, the woman comes to your house, telling you you should believe in the fairies as well. The woman starts wars and people die, using the fairies as a reason. The woman cuts her husband's genitals off cos the fairies told her that's perfectly alright. I'm sure you can see the comparison, and that's why people argue about religion so much. People's beliefs and faiths control the world, as it has always done.

This post has been edited by Osric: 07 October 2008 - 08:28 AM

[Silencer]

Fussy

True, it's not the same.


However, belief wasn't always about the creator. It was designed as an explanation tool, for people who didn't know any better. How did storms occur? Obviously the creation of a god. Why does the sun move? Another god. Etc.
Then it evolved into a population control - rather than, "If you do this, I'll throw you in a dungeon!", it became "If you do this, you will suffer eternal torment from God in Hell." - somewhat more scary, yes?
The thing that gets me, is how people haven't moved beyond this. But, I suppose, if you drum it into a child hard enough, they'll believe anything.
Of course, as Gem tried to point out, everything we think is a construct. It's not provable beyond what we can see/touch/etc. Of course, those senses are a lot more concrete than belief itself.

Cross-post with Osric. See my control/explanation reason for the original reason to believe.

[Terez]

Osric, on Oct 7 2008, 03:27 AM, said:

One thing that we can all agree on is that as long as people keep their religion and beliefs to themselfs it wouldn't bother anyone. Like the woman Frookenhauer mentioned that believed in fairies.. Is it offensive to anyone that she does? It might seem dumb to people, but it wouldn't bother anyone. Problem is, that woman is in the goverment, she passes laws based on her belief in fairies, the woman comes to your house, telling you you should believe in the fairies as well. The woman starts wars and people die, using the fairies as a reason. The woman cuts her husband's genitals off cos the fairies told her that's perfectly alright. I'm sure you can see the comparison, and that's why people argue about religion so much.

Precisely - there aren't many people who would care one way or another about other people's religious beliefs if it weren't for the fact that so many people seem to believe that religious "morals" should be imposed upon society regardless of their lack of logic and inherent bigotry.

And for Bubba - you don't have to be ashamed that you're religious. Just don't try to pretend in an argument that it makes sense, because you probably won't convince anyone. If arguments on the subject offend you, then ignore them.

[Omtose]

This post has been edited by Omtose: 07 October 2008 - 09:48 AM

[bubba]

See that is point you people are missing. This is not a debate thread. Unless I have been wrong about how this whole forum runs in the first place. Threads are started for a purpose. This one was started JUST to ask if you a had a belief and if so a brief statement.
It seams that every thread in this sub-forum doesn't get the same treatment as the rest of this forum. Every thread in this area just gets spammed with THE argument.

If you hate Beliefs, then start a thread for bashing them.

[Terez]

Bubba, on Oct 7 2008, 05:01 AM, said:

See that is point you people are missing. This is not a debate thread. Unless I have been wrong about how this whole forum runs in the first place. Threads are started for a purpose. This one was started JUST to ask if you a had a belief and if so a brief statement.

It's in the Discussion forum, so we should be able to discuss stuff if we want, and it shouldn't be a big deal. Everyone who wants to make their one post and go away is obviously welcome to. I see no reason why we can't discuss religion in a religion thread if we want.

Bubba said:

It seams that every thread in this sub-forum doesn't get the same treatment as the rest of this forum. Every thread in this area just gets spammed with THE argument.

Spammed? If you say so...it's a legitimate argument that takes many forms, and there's hardly any other purpose for this forum anyway. The only difference in treatment of this forum is that everyone seems to think that there are times when the subject is not up for debate, while on the regular discussion forum, no one makes such inane arguments.

Bubba said:

If you hate Beliefs, then start a thread for bashing them.

No one's hating that I've seen so far...and "beliefs" is a rather broad term. We all have beliefs.

[bubba]

I Have to leave for work I will answer later.

[Gem Windcaster]

Bubba: Playing mafia really helps in these debates, have you noticed?

@frookenhauer: That's exactly what I am saying - that I can apply tests to my belief. Please stop assuming things about me that you don't know. Please refer to my previous posts for more detail. My experience is that the trial/test technique work like a charm when it comes to my belief. I can feel God answering me when I pray, I notice his touch throughout my life etc. What I am saying is that, to me, that is no more strange than trusting the sounds I hear are correct, or the colors that I see are real. We learn from early age to acknowledge those senses - why not acknowledge the 'God-sense'? It's so obviously there. Tests, to me, shouldn't be limited to just the scientific-approved senses. Everything counts. Mind, body, soul, will.

That said, yes, a lot of my belief is trusting in something I cannot see in the normal sense. Sometimes feelings aren't even a part of it. But then there's the mind.

I repeat, I cannot, and will not try to explain your situation. You believe what you believe, and I go on believing what I believe.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 07 October 2008 - 01:24 PM

[Gem Windcaster]

(Sorry for the double post)

Hmm, Terez, I'm not sure what you want people to do or say to prove to you that religion isn't, as you say, 'sacred'. I'm sure there are alot of people out there that are insecure about their belief in the sense that they feel uncomfortable discussing it. But we that are here discussing it, and taking all crap, can't be accused of thinking that religion is 'sacred'. I think you have to take that up with all those that aren't part of the discussion. Also, I doubt that just because someone doesn't want to take all that crap, that they automatically think their faith isn't up for discussion. Really, I wish people would stop generalizing like that, period. Some generalizations are needed for the sake of discussion, but I'm sure that most people see what are needed and what isn't. Especially if you want to have a discussion with the people you're generalizing (is that correct grammar?). It makes for a good argument if you show a bit of courtesy. Not because people deserve to be curtsied - I wouldn't dream of making an argument like that when terez is listening - but because it's kinda hard to have a intelligent and constructive debate when you're in the middle of a bar brawl.

[Terez]

Gem Windcaster, on Oct 7 2008, 12:31 PM, said:

(Sorry for the double post)

Hmm, Terez, I'm not sure what you want people to do or say to prove to you that religion isn't, as you say, 'sacred'.

Hmm, how about stop bitching every time the subject turns into a discussion? Not saying you were the one bitching.

Gem said:

I think you have to take that up with all those that aren't part of the discussion.

I did - my comments were specifically addressed to Bubba. Feel free to butt out.

Gem said:

Also, I doubt that just because someone doesn't want to take all that crap, that they automatically think their faith isn't up for discussion.

Take what crap?

[Ganymed]

Ganymed is christian. I believe in god. But I also believe in the Evolution Theory. Don't think the two have to be exclusive.

Also, I would like to state that I keep clear of THE RELIGION DISCUSSION even in real life, except when I'm really drunk, and even then I regret it later. I think there is nothing to discuss about, because everything belief/faith involves is such a personal thing and it is different for everyone. You simply cannot get to this same basis other discussions clearly have. Here it's such a fundamental thing, there is no shared ground. And that is the reason this discussion does not work and will not ever.

As for the discussion about religion as an organized community with rules and such, that's a different matter.

However, what I do not get is the fact that some of the non-believers are constantly pushing to belittle people who have these 'childish', 'unlogical' beliefs. You won't see me trying to convince you in believing in something like god. What I really am trying to say: Why is there even a discussion about personal beliefs going on?

EDIT: That crap: "You see, if you believe in something that generally makes no sense, then you're obviously going to be insecure about it."

This post has been edited by Ganymed: 07 October 2008 - 06:06 PM

[Terez]

Ganymed, on Oct 7 2008, 01:03 PM, said:

I think there is nothing to discuss about, because everything belief/faith involves is such a personal thing and it is different for everyone. You simply cannot get to this same basis other discussions clearly have. Here it's such a fundamental thing, there is no shared ground. And that is the reason this discussion does not work and will not ever.

I disagree - discussions like these helped me to claw my way out of the brainwashing.

Ganymed said:

However, what I do not get is the fact that some of the non-believers are constantly pushing to belittle people who have these 'childish', 'unlogical' beliefs. You won't see me trying to convince you in believing in something like god. What I really am trying to say: Why is there even a discussion about personal beliefs going on?

Because some of us wish to have discussions about it. If you don't, then feel free to butt out.

[Ganymed]

Terez, on Oct 7 2008, 08:08 PM, said:

Because some of us wish to have discussions about it. If you don't, then feel free to butt out.

Already have. As I said: I will not partake in this.

[Gem Windcaster]

Terez, on Oct 7 2008, 07:03 PM, said:

Gem Windcaster, on Oct 7 2008, 12:31 PM, said:

(Sorry for the double post)

Hmm, Terez, I'm not sure what you want people to do or say to prove to you that religion isn't, as you say, 'sacred'.

Hmm, how about stop bitching every time the subject turns into a discussion? Not saying you were the one bitching.

I'm not sure anyone is bitching. But granted, that is a subjective statement.

Terez, on Oct 7 2008, 07:03 PM, said:

Gem said:

I think you have to take that up with all those that aren't part of the discussion.

I did - my comments were specifically addressed to Bubba. Feel free to butt out.

Fair enough.

Terez, on Oct 7 2008, 07:03 PM, said:

Gem said:

Also, I doubt that just because someone doesn't want to take all that crap, that they automatically think their faith isn't up for discussion.

Take what crap?

Oh come on, if Christians devoted even half the time bashing atheists that you spend bashing religion, we'd be (most likely) accused of going on a crusade, being fanatics and intolerant - pick your favorite epithet.

Doesn't mean I dislike discussing - I am well aware of the fact that I as a christian all the time have to answer for whatever experience people have with Christianity - or take the blame mainly for whatever bad experience they have. This is called 'discussion'. Not that I am complaining - I like reversing debate traps - people are notoriously bad at setting them up.

Crap, now it sounds like I am whining. Scratch what I said above. Of course I think all these discussions are the most objective, scientific and wonderfully insightful and humble discussions in the history of mankind. May anyone that disagrees out loud be burned alive.

Oh no, now it sounds like I am being sarcastic. Of course, as a Christian, I have no right expressing any opinions regarding objective, scientific and wonderfully insightful and humble discussions, because of the crusades mainly, and the inquisition, and the billions of people killed in the name of God, and all the men and women abusing mankind - all bad things really. Like war and Hitler. Oh why not throw in Saddam in there while you're at it. Yeah, I probably should be executed for speaking my mind and believing in God at the same time. Sheesh, we probably never would have had a cold war if it wasn't for the Christians. Not the second world war either.

Talking about crap...

-----
Don't say you didn't ask for it.