[Anomander]

I'm not replying to add to this debate, but to let you guys know why you can suddenly vote again.

I fixed the spelling on atheist, but it deleted the poll from Shinrei's original post. Thus I had to add it and the original votes again. So please just click "Show Results" instead.

As for my personal beliefs, I voted 'Pagan/Wiccan'.

[Grief]

I am dismayed to see that jedi is still not an option.

[frookenhauer]

Gem Windcaster, on Oct 5 2008, 01:26 AM, said:

It had always been a choice. But I think most children want to be like their parents in that respect - no matter what the parents are. When I got older I saw every side of it, and I had to find out what I thought, and what I believed. It never occurred to me that anyone could make that choice for me - because it was always assumed by everyone I met that I had to make that choice myself. I remember we even talked about it - when I was going to make the choice for myself. But when I did, it was I that initialized it, not my parents.

Everyone believes in something. You have to believe that your eyes give you a fair representation of the world around you, that your brain interprets your touch and smell and other senses to a correct representation of what's actually true. You can never 'prove' beyond any doubt that your brain actually knows what's our there - at some point you have to trust your brain.

What I believe...it comes from what my mind and my soul tells me is true. I cannot deny it, the same way I cannot deny that I can see the sun or that I can touch my relatives. I choose to believe that my senses don't lie. The same way I choose to believe that my mind and my soul (or whatever it is) don't lie to me about what this universe is about.

Maybe we're all crazy - i.e. have no real perception of what's really around us - but we all believe something. Nothing can ever take me further than the possibility that you're all just the figment of my imagination.

Thanks for sharing

Right now I'm holding my credit card. I estimate it to be roughly 10 cm by 6cm. It has raised numbers on it. It has a map of the world on it and it also has my name on it. It is clearly defined. It has very little in the way of taste and smell, but if I tap it it makes an audible sound. That's all 5 senses covered. I am holding a credit card in my hand. All the evidence is present and correct. I do the same with a glass of juice, mmm, tasty...

God is all around me, but I can't see him, I can't feel him, I cannot hear him, no smell and no taste...Wait! Sorry, false alarm. Using all the facilities that he has granted me, I am unable to verify his presence. Okay lets try to find my soul, er...this is getting a little silly. Look god, this is not right, I'm just not having much luck here. how about some help?

Comparing faith and belief to what our senses tell us is not the brightest argument to put forward. Its truer to say you believe because you just have faith and vice versa.

edit: I helped to make jedi an official religion here in the UK

This post has been edited by frookenhauer: 05 October 2008 - 09:25 PM

[Gem Windcaster]

frookenhauer, on Oct 5 2008, 10:24 PM, said:

Comparing faith and belief to what our senses tell us is not the brightest argument to put forward. Its truer to say you believe because you just have faith and vice versa.

Actually, I was simply trying to make an honest description of how I really experience life and how I see things around me, which was what you were asking for. Maybe we believers are different in that respect, that we perceive things different - or maybe I am simply different in that regard.

But, I assure you, most people trained in philosophy would agree with me on the points I made. I am first and foremost a philosopher, a philosopher that ponders on the metaphysical world. To most people of today, that kind of world view is regarded as non-logical, and therefore nonsense. But to us philosophers, logic is a late invention (fully developed in the late 19th century) and not to be trusted with big decisions like what life is all about (for more information, please read up on Gottlob Frege and Ludwig Wittgenstein in the philosophy section).

I understand that you don't agree with that world view, and that is fine. You're even welcome to think it's stupid as an argument. However, I wasn't trying to make it an argument (for whatever you thought I was arguing for), I was being descriptive. you're reading too much into what I was saying.

As for the comparison between the reason for my faith and the basic human sensory equipment, I think I was being both fair and spot on. However, I can't speak for anyone else, and certainly not you, but I wasn't trying to, I was simply describing my own experience, which was what you were asking for. If you want me to describe your situation, I assure you, I can't and won't even try. :broody:

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 05 October 2008 - 10:02 PM

[Darkwatch]

I voted other.
I'm apathetic.

Here's my picture:

 Fana.gif (55.48K)
Number of downloads: 15

This post has been edited by Darkwatch: 06 October 2008 - 12:18 AM

[bubba]

Gem Windcaster, on Oct 5 2008, 06:01 PM, said:

frookenhauer, on Oct 5 2008, 10:24 PM, said:

Comparing faith and belief to what our senses tell us is not the brightest argument to put forward. Its truer to say you believe because you just have faith and vice versa.

Actually, I was simply trying to make an honest description of how I really experience life and how I see things around me, which was what you were asking for. Maybe we believers are different in that respect, that we perceive things different - or maybe I am simply different in that regard.

But, I assure you, most people trained in philosophy would agree with me on the points I made. I am first and foremost a philosopher, a philosopher that ponders on the metaphysical world. To most people of today, that kind of world view is regarded as non-logical, and therefore nonsense. But to us philosophers, logic is a late invention (fully developed in the late 19th century) and not to be trusted with big decisions like what life is all about (for more information, please read up on Gottlob Frege and Ludwig Wittgenstein in the philosophy section).

I understand that you don't agree with that world view, and that is fine. You're even welcome to think it's stupid as an argument. However, I wasn't trying to make it an argument (for whatever you thought I was arguing for), I was being descriptive. you're reading too much into what I was saying.

As for the comparison between the reason for my faith and the basic human sensory equipment, I think I was being both fair and spot on. However, I can't speak for anyone else, and certainly not you, but I wasn't trying to, I was simply describing my own experience, which was what you were asking for. If you want me to describe your situation, I assure you, I can't and won't even try. :broody:

fixed

This post has been edited by Bubba: 07 October 2008 - 01:49 AM

[frookenhauer]

Nice words, very pretty in point of fact...and if I just move Bubbas' infinite clap out of my view the world will be better place...sorry, where was I - Ah yes. Very pretty, but I'm just saying that believing what my senses tell me is correct is not comparable to the belief in god. I do not have training in philosophy, but I got some good old fashioned common sense coupled with the much derided logic . Allow me to be more specific:

My senses tell me loads of things, and everything I see, hear, touch, taste and smell can be proven by any number of tests that can be applied, logical arguments are a big help here, so take note dissenters For example: I am holding my mobile phone about a meter above my foot. Lets imagine for a moment that the phone isn't really there, if I open my hand and the imaginary phone does not hit my foot then my senses are big fat liars. Ouch! the phone hit my foot, so my sight and touch are okay, lets apply more tests and correlate the results and add and take away the other senses, do more tests, cross reference...Guess what, I think my senses work, they are working together with my brain almost perfectly.

How many such tests can you apply to your belief? Just because our brain is correct with regards to our senses does not automatically qualify it to be correct about the belief in god, which was what you're saying. I'm not saying its stupid, its just inapplicable.

A few years ago, I worked as an IT drone for a finance firm, there was this lovely young lady in my team. She believes she has fairies living in her back garden, no word of a lie. (This did not come out straight away, we'd become fairly close, by the time she dropped the clanger.) In as diplomatic a way as possible I mentioned that fairies don't really exist, at least not any more, these days, not much...Can't be seen, can't be touched, etc, etc, but she knows they're there. Sound familiar?

[Terez]

frookenhauer, on Oct 6 2008, 04:17 PM, said:

Nice words, very pretty in point of fact...and if I just move Bubbas' infinite clap out of my view the world will be better place...

Adblock works wonders.

[bubba]

Shinrei no Shintai, on Jan 9 2007, 10:26 PM, said:

Since there are so many religion threads these days, I'm sort of interested in seeing where people are actually coming from. Call this poll a reference of sorts. So, if you could vote AND identify in a separate post, that'd be great.

I'm quoting the original post of this thread to make a point.

Why do certain people on this forum have to turn every thread in this sub-forum into a war on religion? If you don't believe in any kind of "God", don't. There is no one here trying to make you.

I have never seen any kind of push for converts in these forums. Why do you feel that you have to push the other way?

If someone "believes" you people take it as some sort of attack on your person. I don't get it.

I have had to stay away from this area of the forum because of the way people bash on any kind belief constantly. The use of veiled insults and innuendos is disgusting. But I feel cheapened by the way I feel I have to hide my beliefs.

I'm not going to hide any more. I have decided to defend. I will answer.

Bubba

[frookenhauer]

Good for you.

[bubba]

Glad you approve.

[frookenhauer]

I do, without reservation.


( still don't like infinite clap going at it out the corner of my eye, and firefox adblocker no work for it, but I'm going to persevere...)

This post has been edited by frookenhauer: 07 October 2008 - 01:30 AM

[bubba]

frookenhauer, on Oct 6 2008, 09:29 PM, said:

I do, without reservation.


( still don't like infinite clap going at it out the corner of my eye, and firefox adblocker no work for it, but I'm going to persevere...)

Citizen Cane has left the building.....

[frookenhauer]

citizen cane?

[bubba]

frookenhauer, on Oct 6 2008, 10:03 PM, said:

citizen cane?

That was the GIF file of a man clapping. It was from the movie Citizen Cane.

[frookenhauer]

Ah, that would have kept me up...don't take this the wrong way , but I think its Citizen Kane

This post has been edited by frookenhauer: 07 October 2008 - 02:24 AM

[bubba]

AHHH you are correct sir.

[Terez]

Bubba, on Oct 6 2008, 05:50 PM, said:

Why do certain people on this forum have to turn every thread in this sub-forum into a war on religion?

Why do certain people feel the need to continually make threads to pontificate on the greatness of religion? That's what churches are for.

So everyone wants to talk about what they believe. That's great. I believe religion is dumb.

[Terez]

frookenhauer, on Oct 6 2008, 08:29 PM, said:

firefox adblocker no work for it

You should be able to right click on any image and adblock it.

[Terez]

And to make THREE posts in a row (I must be a spammer or something)...

I realized that my retort might sound a bit flippant. So I'll put forth a couple of questions to clarify my point. (This topic came up briefly in another one of Shin's well-meaning but pointless attempts to have a "nice" religion thread.)

Why is it that everything in the world can be discussed, except for religion? There are many of us who are diametrically opposed in politics, and bump heads often in the Discussions forum. No one asks, "why does every thread about politics have to turn into an attack on the party you don't support?" It's a discussion forum, and that's what it's for: to discuss the merits and faults of our beliefs.

Why is it that, whenever religious beliefs are questioned, it's always taken as a personal attack, even when the arguments are clearly dealing with the belief and the arguments given in favor of it, and not the person?

Why is it that people think that religious beliefs should be respected? Why should I respect religious belief? I think that it is illogical, the product of brainwashing, and dependent on the very resistance to questioning that we see here. I have no respect for religious belief. I have respect for certain (certainly not all) religious individuals, and I'm not about to show up at anyone's church and tell them their beliefs are stupid. Nor would I start an argument about religion in a religious person's home if I was a guest there. But I'm also not about to hold my tongue on my religious opinions on a Discussion forum on the off chance that someone will get their feelings hurt, nor do I expect anyone to hold their tongue about their own religious beliefs (though it's generally expected on a Discussion forum that there be something to discuss - in other words, an argument). The fact that there is no logical argument that supports religious belief is hardly the fault of the atheists/agnostics.