[Optimus Prime]

Religions contradict themselves all the time, so why would it matter if one contradicts another? It's the nature of the beast.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

THIS IS NO PLACE FOR LOGIC!!!

Really.

[D Man]

Optimus Prime, on Jul 6 2008, 03:14 AM, said:

I'm a Universist.

I believe that the Universe is God basically. So meld that with some sort of Agnostic principle and there ya go.

Thats pantheism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

[mocker]

nice (and frickin rare) to see a thread on religion that isnt a massive warzone that terrifies

athiest i spose

[councilor]

is it just me, or did someone spell atheist wrong?

[Terez]

I noticed that a long time ago, but decided to not be a grammar nazi for once...

[Osric]

Agnostic, I don't believe in the bible, or anything thought of by man that supposedly came from a divine source noone can check. However I don't believe that just because we have a better understanding of how things were created that it didnt GET created by a force more powerful.

I don't believe in the cold futility most athiests believe in, I think my life has meaning, I just dont know what it is, and Im not inclined to take anyone else's word for it either.

[Grief]

If you added a section for "Jedi" there would be far less people choosing anything else...

[Terez]

Osric, on Oct 3 2008, 09:50 AM, said:

Agnostic, I don't believe in the bible, or anything thought of by man that supposedly came from a divine source noone can check. However I don't believe that just because we have a better understanding of how things were created that it didnt GET created by a force more powerful.

I don't believe in the cold futility most athiests believe in, I think my life has meaning, I just dont know what it is, and Im not inclined to take anyone else's word for it either.

That's a common misrepresentation of what atheists believe. We don't believe that our lives have predetermined meaning, but we don't believe in "cold futility" either. Life has meaning - whatever meaning we choose to give it.

Also, we don't believe that the existence of god is impossible or disproven - it's just unsupported by any evidence whatsoever. Someone who says that the existence of god is beyond a shadow of a doubt impossible would be an "anti-theist".

The only difference between an agnostic and an atheist is that agnosticism carries connotations of apathy. Atheists tend to be more overtly concerned with the problems in society that are justified and perpetuated by religious belief.

[Obdigore]

Athiest

Quote

atheist (plural atheists)

1) A person who does not believe that deities exist; one who lacks belief in gods.
2006, Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, page 51:
Atheists do not have faith; and reason alone could not propel one to total conviction that anything definitely does not exist.
2) A person who believes that no deities exist; one who denies the existence of all gods.

Usage notes
(person who does not believe that deities exist): Note the difference between the two senses. In general, those who identify themselves as atheists say they do not have a belief, while those who are believers identify atheists using the second sense, someone who denies the existence. This reflects the different underlying philosophies—the religious see belief or faith as valid; the non-religious do not. (This is the substance of the Dawkins quotation.)

Again.

I Think Osric is still more agnostic than athiest. He seems to believe something, or has faith that there is 'something more', but isn't sure what it is. I do disagree, Terez, that agnosticism carries connotations of apathy, unless you yourself put it there.

Agnostics:
agnosticism (uncountable)

Quote

1) the view that absolute truth or ultimate certainty is unattainable, especially regarding knowledge not based on experience or perceivable phenomena.
2) the view that the existence of God or of all deities is unknown, unknowable, unproven, or unprovable.
3) doubt, uncertainty, or skepticism regarding the existence of God or of all deities.

I personally subscribe to the third definition. Nothing has been proven either way, in my mind, and so I would be interested in learning more from both sides, have they a new view to show me.

As an aside, I dislike the second definition of Agnosticism there, as it starts saying it is unproven or unprovable, as both Athiests and Theists (At least those who aren't blinded by their own beliefs) agree that there is no scientific evidence of any deities, just guesses regarding certain things.

[Terez]

Obdigore, on Oct 3 2008, 02:40 PM, said:

Athiest

Quote

atheist (plural atheists)

1) A person who does not believe that deities exist; one who lacks belief in gods.
2006, Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, page 51:
Atheists do not have faith; and reason alone could not propel one to total conviction that anything definitely does not exist.
2) A person who believes that no deities exist; one who denies the existence of all gods.

So, I'm not sure what your point is.

[Obdigore]

Terez, on Oct 3 2008, 03:07 PM, said:

Obdigore, on Oct 3 2008, 02:40 PM, said:

Athiest

Quote

atheist (plural atheists)

1) A person who does not believe that deities exist; one who lacks belief in gods.
2006, Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, page 51:
Atheists do not have faith; and reason alone could not propel one to total conviction that anything definitely does not exist.
2) A person who believes that no deities exist; one who denies the existence of all gods.

So, I'm not sure what your point is.

Obviously.

I am saying that Athiests say 'we do not believe in deities until they can be scientifically proven, and they have not been'.

Agnostics say 'nothing is scientifically proven, but we believe there might be something.'

[Terez]

Oh, so you were just being redundant. I get it now...

[Grief]

Terez, do you deliberately try to be obtuse, irritating, and seem to ignore what people say on these religious debates, or does it just sort of happen?
Atheists do not believe in god, at all, and are certain one doesn't exist.
Agnostics believe there may be something "higher", but are uncertain as to what it is.

[frookenhauer]

I've just spent the day with some religious people, to varying degrees. We went to Alton Towers and it was great and I'm beat. Anyway, I just don't get it.

Why would some super deity type entity need me to worship he, she or it (They?) ? You don't need me, you're omniverous, er, omnipotent.

Okay, so I'm on this planet as a test? Why? You're omniscient and can map out what I do throughout my life and we can save all this living (I'm actually 100% about living BTW) business and you can send me up or down where my immortal soul can do its thing.

And where the hell have you been for the last 1500 or so years. People are a little cynical these days and 2nd hand (At least) information from back before the internet or even Encyclopedia Britanica has proven itself to be unreliable at best and mostly unprovable, which as far as I'm concerned is the key.

And why is it that the next time we see your hand at work, humanity has to go down the pan in JUDGEMENT DAY! When Gabriel blows his saxophone, trumpets are no way near as cool as the sax, I'd rather be informed of our impending end as a species via something a little cooler, so sue me, although I would much prefer you didn't.

Don't get me wrong, I like Jesus, I'm quite partial to Moses and Mohammed is a top geezer PBUH. I like the moral code, I'm almost pro life and try not to be too much of a b@stard to the people I meet. But I need to see more to want to sign up.

Apologies if this has offended anyone, its truly how I feel.

[Obdigore]

@Grief, yes she does.

frookenhauer, on Oct 3 2008, 03:43 PM, said:

I've just spent the day with some religious people, to varying degrees. We went to Alton Towers and it was great and I'm beat. Anyway, I just don't get it.

Why would some super deity type entity need me to worship he, she or it (They?) ? You don't need me, you're omniverous, er, omnipotent.

Okay, so I'm on this planet as a test? Why? You're omniscient and can map out what I do throughout my life and we can save all this living (I'm actually 100% about living BTW) business and you can send me up or down where my immortal soul can do its thing.

And where the hell have you been for the last 1500 or so years. People are a little cynical these days and 2nd hand (At least) information from back before the internet or even Encyclopedia Britanica has proven itself to be unreliable at best and mostly unprovable, which as far as I'm concerned is the key.

And why is it that the next time we see your hand at work, humanity has to go down the pan in JUDGEMENT DAY! When Gabriel blows his saxophone, trumpets are no way near as cool as the sax, I'd rather be informed of our impending end as a species via something a little cooler, so sue me, although I would much prefer you didn't.

Don't get me wrong, I like Jesus, I'm quite partial to Moses and Mohammed is a top geezer PBUH. I like the moral code, I'm almost pro life and try not to be too much of a b@stard to the people I meet. But I need to see more to want to sign up.

Apologies if this has offended anyone, its truly how I feel.

And you have just hit upon many of the arguments of the athiests towards theists. Many people of faith reply to these points with 'Everything is according to (insert deity here)'s plan'. Most of the people around here are athiests/agnostics, and the few religious people generally don't venture much into this forum as certain people (myself included) attack their beliefs pretty viciously at times.

[Gem Windcaster]

Obdigore, on Oct 3 2008, 10:13 PM, said:

Most of the people around here are athiests/agnostics, and the few religious people generally don't venture much into this forum as certain people (myself included) attack their beliefs pretty viciously at times.

I know I am crazy joining in the debates around here - but I can't help myself, I actually think it is fun***.

So far, when I enter a debate in religious matters either of two things happen*:
1. Discussion die because people get tired of hammering their foreheads bloody against me unshakable faith.
2. Discussion die because people get offended when I viciously attack back.**

*Other occasions I don't count, because they are not as fun.
** Just to prove that Terez is not the only one that can be irritating and obtuse on purpose.
***Yes I am making fun of you all, and you better get used to it, because I am not likely to stop any time soon.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 03 October 2008 - 10:00 PM

[Obdigore]

Yes Gem, well, you are "special". ;P

[bubba]

Bubba's a Christian....with a sense of humor

[frookenhauer]

Damnit, I thought I was being original. It really has all happened before and god does really exist...I BELIEVE! All I need to do now is build my Synamosqathedral and begin the incantations. /crap idea

I take it you are a staunch athiest Obdi. I'm obviously borderline agnostic leaning towards full blown proof led belief, which lets face it probably won't happen until the big day...Er, maybe I should remove the word obviously.

how about you Gem? I won't insult you by picking the wrong deity...

I've stayed away from this end of the forum for a long time and only the events of today have made me want to come up and voice my personal/shared opinions. I generally keep religion at barge-pole length away, its too frikkin sensitive a subject.