[amphibian]

Abyss, on 15 May 2020 - 06:08 AM, said:

Not so much staying together as staying on the same side of the world.
He's posted some journal updates, more or less 'it's my fault, I hurt her, we need time apart, no we're not divorcing'.

These two have an unnecessarily public relationship and that's not healthy. I am very loath to speculate on mental illness diagnoses, yet I'm also aware of the phenomenon of "splitting" that often occurs with people who have BPD and similar conditions.

The blog post by Gaiman makes me feel like I am reading the words of an overwhelmed person frantically trying to save their life from imploding and having to manage public expectations at the same time. I can't know the details that supply the context and frankly I don't want to know - Amanda has boundary issues as evidenced by her whole public career. All I have is this description in this forum and that blog post, but both are making me feel like Neil is being emotionally abused here and it's bad enough that he has to be near his people that he trusts fully in Scotland rather than rent a place in NZ.

I hope that they're able to find a state of being that centers the kid's happiness and each of their own happiness and that we don't get this public involvement in a super complex and private situation.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 15 May 2020 - 02:29 PM, said:

The blog post by Gaiman makes me feel like I am reading the words of an overwhelmed person frantically trying to save their life from imploding and having to manage public expectations at the same time.

This is where I sit on the blog post too. Especially the blame-taking (It's may fault, I hurt her), because I know of people in reltionships with people who have mental health issues and the overarching theme is "keeping the unstable human happy even if it means taking blame", so blame taking is a way to mitigate the damage that might occur to the overall relationship. It also saves Ash from the splash back of anything that Palmer might do/react about around him because she can stay calmer if someone else takes the blame off her possible problems.

I'm speculating, but it really reads clearly to me simply becuase of my experience with people in these relationships. Her immediate need was to lash out and do a "woe is me" post...Neil's "I see that Amanda" tweet shows he was unhappy about it...then the GR thing happened...his only recourse to maintain a semblance of normalcy over the whole thing is to blame take, and say they are working on things, which clearly calmed her down from the precipice of where she'd been when she lashed out. He's been with her ten years...he probably knows how to handle these things now.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 15 May 2020 - 03:15 PM

[QuickTidal]

So the comics industry has had a couple of days revelations/confessions about some bad creators...the most bad of these is Cameron Stewart who has been revealed to be a predator who was grooming young women. I have NEVER liked Stewart, and I could never really pinpoint why I didn't like him...but I truly didn't. I guess my dirtbag radar was sounding off. The most damning is not just that this was apparently a known secret in the Toronto comics industry (where Stewart is from), but we all knew that Stewart fell out with his (now deceased) mentor Darwin Cooke before he passed away...it turns out this was why...Cooke could not countenance his disgusting behaviour and the pair fell out over it, as his widow has specified on twitter as well. She has some choice words for him there too.

Full details here.

But that's not remotely all. In the fallout of this was also a twitter thread by a woman (deleted today as she was getting a tonne of hate), and it was confirmed by four other women, who revealed that Warren Ellis was allegedly also a predator in the industry. The term "bluebeard" was used in fact (sounds like this means to seduce and then reject one woman after another, repeat), here's the still existing thread of one fo the four women who have come forward.



Someone also posted a long list of all the predatory men in the comics industry (it was long)....but it's since been deleted.

At any rate, I never liked Stewart...and this just makes me say "fuck him into eternity". I hope this means he's done in the industry. Find another job to do Cam, you utter trash bag.

And as for Ellis. I liked his work for a long time. In fact his comics were the first I ever really seriously read in the industry when I was old enough to appreciate comics for stories and not just superheroes. I met him. Shook his hand. Thanked him for his involvement in my comics-awakening.

And you know what? I don't read Warren Ellis anymore. Fuck any type of predatory behaviour.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 17 June 2020 - 11:41 AM

[amphibian]

I didn't know the list got taken down. There were some women on it - Annie Mok and Hope Nicholson - and the list seemed to have the "people we already knew about" like that DC editor who was protected for decades in addition to the more recent bad actors.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 17 June 2020 - 02:14 PM, said:

I didn't know the list got taken down. There were some women on it - Annie Mok and Hope Nicholson - and the list seemed to have the "people we already knew about" like that DC editor who was protected for decades in addition to the more recent bad actors.

Yeah, Brian Wood and Roc Upchurch who were known abusers/predators were on it as well.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 17 June 2020 - 03:13 PM, said:

amphibian, on 17 June 2020 - 02:14 PM, said:

I didn't know the list got taken down. There were some women on it - Annie Mok and Hope Nicholson - and the list seemed to have the "people we already knew about" like that DC editor who was protected for decades in addition to the more recent bad actors.

Yeah, Brian Wood and Roc Upchurch who were known abusers/predators were on it as well.

Some/all of it is still circulating, on twitter at least.

The Warren Ellis thing... one thread has the count at 35 women alleging variation same the same thing... so... yeah.
Fuck.




This is very .... i don't have the word for when someone whose work you loved and whose public personality you enjoyed and who you thought was better than that turns out to very much likely be one of those things you genuinely hate in the world. Disappointing doesn't cut it... disillusioning... nah, the things i liked about Ellis didn't change, it's just there's this whole other dimension to him...

He has a daughter FFS.


So... yeah.... Fuck.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 18 June 2020 - 02:43 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 17 June 2020 - 03:13 PM, said:

amphibian, on 17 June 2020 - 02:14 PM, said:

I didn't know the list got taken down. There were some women on it - Annie Mok and Hope Nicholson - and the list seemed to have the "people we already knew about" like that DC editor who was protected for decades in addition to the more recent bad actors.

Yeah, Brian Wood and Roc Upchurch who were known abusers/predators were on it as well.

Some/all of it is still circulating, on twitter at least.

The Warren Ellis thing... one thread has the count at 35 women alleging variation same the same thing... so... yeah.
Fuck.




This is very .... i don't have the word for when someone whose work you loved and whose public personality you enjoyed and who you thought was better than that turns out to very much likely be one of those things you genuinely hate in the world. Disappointing doesn't cut it... disillusioning... nah, the things i liked about Ellis didn't change, it's just there's this whole other dimension to him...

He has a daughter FFS.


So... yeah.... Fuck.

So way back when this was actually occurring, I recall that the only reason I even KNEW about Katie West was through Warren's posts on her and links to her nude photography, and his championing of her as a person and an artist ect.

And then all of the sudden, he stopped. There was never another mention of her on his blog/website/forums again, at least not as it was during the main time he was clearly with her/around her. It's like she no longer existed. I recall wondering why this person he was almost holding up as "muse" disappeared...and now I know.

That he seemingly did this same routine to so many women over the years, in so many states of life-stress, while he dangled his own clout in the comics industry over them...upsets me greatly.

Also, regarding Stewart....apparently he became such a well known predator in Toronto comics that the heat was too much for him and he moved to Berlin as a result. This according to one of his victims who literally had him TELL her that he has "gone through al the women in Montreal and Toronto". Oh, and DC comics has dropped him from a project he was currently or soon to do. So that's good. I expect Image and Dark Horse (both of whom still have contracts with him for stuff) to follow suit.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 18 June 2020 - 11:37 AM

[polishgenius]

Oh man the Warren Ellis one hurts. His works' been so influential on me.

[Abyss]

Dark Horse editor Brendan Wright now being outed as a creepredator as well.

I was active on the WEF back when Ellis' 'filthy assistants' were a thing. Apparently they were a whole other thing as well... it's stunning how everyone involved went along with it unknowing... a few now say they suspected... yeah with a decade of hindsight. Ffs, the 'assistants' went along with it like it was a big joke, at least that's how I remember it.

[polishgenius]

I wasn't around for the WEF or remember the Filthy Assistants thing except in Transmet but I feel like people are in danger of focusing a bit on the wrong thing when I see things (on twitter) like 'It was always obviousy, he paid attention to the young women'. As far as we know they were all in their 20s, an older bloke flirting with, even having relationships with, women that age is odd but not inherently a creep thing. At the same time what he did wouldn't have been better if the women in question had all been in their 40s. The issue is with the manipulation and reported use of his status in the industry not really (unless there were teenagers involved) their age.

Equally I've seen a couple of people say we should have known because Spider fucked Yelena and it's like, while that was obviously dodgy because he was her boss, she cracked onto him and then they had a lasting relationship even though they argued all the time, which is the literal opposite of what Ellis is being accused of. It's like people saying we should have known about Luc Besson because of Leon, but Leon was about a man very definitely not sleeping with a child so how was that an indicator? By retroanalysing every piece of work a person did regardless of how it actually relates to their wrongdoing, you run the risk of making it so that no-one can write any bad people, because they'll be suspected of being that bad person.

[amphibian]

There's an original script in which Leon has sex eith the twelve year old girl. There's deleted scenes that amp up the attempts of the girl to have sex with Leon and "they wake up in bed together" after he walks into the shower where she is. It's a movie that got somewhat pulled back from explicitly being about that awful concept, but it still kind of goes there and Besson's real life did way more than that.

The movie at its core is gross and I think you gotta see that.

[polishgenius]

amphibian, on 19 June 2020 - 12:33 PM, said:

The movie at its core is gross and I think you gotta see that.

The movie is uncomfortable but uncomfortable isn't always gross in conception. I didn't know the stuff about the behind the scenes and it's only knowing who Besson turned out to be and that (even without the deleted scenes you mention) he probably meant her to be genuinely alluring and not a figure you felt worried and sorry for that makes it gross.

[Abyss]

I only recall one genuinely uncomfortable shades of Lolita scene from THE PROFESSIONAL and Reno, I thought, made it look like Leon was as uncomfortable as the sane parts of the audience should have been.

[Abyss]

Abyss, on 19 June 2020 - 01:43 AM, said:

Dark Horse editor Brendan Wright now being outed as a creepredator as well.

I was active on the WEF back when Ellis' 'filthy assistants' were a thing. Apparently they were a whole other thing as well... it's stunning how everyone involved went along with it unknowing... a few now say they suspected... yeah with a decade of hindsight. Ffs, the 'assistants' went along with it like it was a big joke, at least that's how I remember it.

Irony.
I'm in the middle of a GLOBAL FREQUENCY reread when the Ellis news hit.

Hard to decide between complete and delete. It's so damn good.


He's published an apology. Reception varies between acceptance by some and condemnation by most.

[polishgenius]

Abyss, on 22 June 2020 - 03:46 AM, said:

Irony.
I'm in the middle of a GLOBAL FREQUENCY reread when the Ellis news hit.

Hard to decide between complete and delete. It's so damn good.

For me I'm still gonna read and enjoy the Ellis works I've already got- I just won't be buying new ones unless I see some indicator that he's changed. Which might never happen.

Like, I don't wanna diminish what he did, it was nasty, but for me it's on the 'forgivable if he learns from it' side of the line unless there's more we haven't learned yet.

His apology to me read like that of a man who intellectually understands that he did wrong but emotionally hasn't quite got to the responsibility yet. The bit that didn't sit well was when he said he never thought of himself as a big name that people look up to. You might not have done Warren but you knew other people did.

[Abyss]

Going to be interesting to see what happens to his works.
BATMAN'S GRAVE is supposedly done. DC will have to decide whether to publish the whole run or not. CASTLEVANIA is still supposed to have a S3. I wouldn't bet on ever seeing the FREAKANGELS on screen.

PG I think you hit part of the problem with the apology... the idea that he didnt think he had any influence. It is hard to believe. He did help a number of people's careers when this was happening. A willingness to do that suggests a knowledge that he could do that.

It's just fncked. And there are really too many to put it off to opportunists or bitter exes.

I still have a copy of ENDER'S GAME somewhere. I have a complete set of early issues of RAT QUEENS. And who am I kidding, nothing will take away my THE AUTHORITY floppies or CROOKED LITTLE VEIN. ....but dammit.

[QuickTidal]

His so-called apology centered on himself, and even the parts where he references "those he hurt", it's nebulous and again centred on him. It's simply not a good apology in my books. It smacks more of 50 women calling him out and him not really knowing how to acknowledge it, so when he says something it sounds self-serving.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

What exactly has Ellis done, beyond being a serial dater with poor boundaries and bad at long-term commitment? I've read the initial accusations, and sure, I get from their perspective how it can seem bad when someone you care about loses interest, but I don't see anything abusive. And yeah, I get that there was a power inequality — but no one has said he specifically parlayed favors in exchange for sex (maybe that's an outdated view).


(Not defending him, actually looking for specifics).

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 22 June 2020 - 01:13 PM

[QuickTidal]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 22 June 2020 - 01:03 PM, said:

What exactly has Ellis done, beyond being a serial dater with poor boundaries and bad at long-term commitment? I've read the initial accusations, and sure, I get from their perspective how it can seem bad when someone you care about loses interest, but I don't see anything abusive. And yeah, I get that there was a power inequality — but no one has said he specifically parlayed favors in exchange for sex (maybe that's an outdated view).


(Not defending him, actually looking for specifics).

I'll let someone who was involved in this speak on the why:

By even the least charitable interpretation, no laws were broken. Legally speaking, he seems to be in the clear. Even (Katie) West has said: this wasn’t them being abusive, it was a man abusing his power. But the fact that it was legal doesn’t mean that harm wasn’t done. It doesn’t mean that people weren’t taken advantage of, had their trust abused by someone they respected or — in many cases — idolized and who leveraged their trust against them. The fact that no laws were broken doesn’t remove the abuse of trust, nor does it mitigate the consequences of those action.

It's about his clout and power in the industry and how he leveraged that against the relative dynamic of that with regards to these women. And in some cases it tainted their entire experience in the industry.

So the fact that his apology is: I didn't know I held this position or that I was that famous...is bollocks. He knew he was a heavy hitter. He literally had the WEFs (Warren Ellis Forums) with thousands of faithful hanging on his every word, men and women.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

QuickTidal, on 22 June 2020 - 01:27 PM, said:

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 22 June 2020 - 01:03 PM, said:

What exactly has Ellis done, beyond being a serial dater with poor boundaries and bad at long-term commitment? I've read the initial accusations, and sure, I get from their perspective how it can seem bad when someone you care about loses interest, but I don't see anything abusive. And yeah, I get that there was a power inequality — but no one has said he specifically parlayed favors in exchange for sex (maybe that's an outdated view).


(Not defending him, actually looking for specifics).

I'll let someone who was involved in this speak on the why:

By even the least charitable interpretation, no laws were broken. Legally speaking, he seems to be in the clear. Even (Katie) West has said: this wasn’t them being abusive, it was a man abusing his power. But the fact that it was legal doesn’t mean that harm wasn’t done. It doesn’t mean that people weren’t taken advantage of, had their trust abused by someone they respected or — in many cases — idolized and who leveraged their trust against them. The fact that no laws were broken doesn’t remove the abuse of trust, nor does it mitigate the consequences of those action.

It's about his clout and power in the industry and how he leveraged that against the relative dynamic of that with regards to these women. And in some cases it tainted their entire experience in the industry.

So the fact that his apology is: I didn't know I held this position or that I was that famous...is bollocks. He knew he was a heavy hitter. He literally had the WEFs (Warren Ellis Forums) with thousands of faithful hanging on his every word, men and women.

How do you distinguish between "power tripper who intentionally used his power over others to manipulate them" vs "clueless bloke who should have known better but was genuinely looking for — and not finding — commitment and a relationship among women in his field"?