[SpectreofEschaton]

I've only loaned the book out once, but before I did so, I had my friend come over and we went through a 6-hour Malazan crash-course where I explained everything that could possibly be relevant to what's going on in the beginning, going over it until he felt comfortable enough to begin. (And somehow I managed to avoid spoiling him).

We also had daily reports on what he read, what confused him, and what other details he needed filling in on.

Suffice it to say, he loved the book and is hooked on the series now.

[worry]

Haha that is some High Mage level geekery! I think I'm more likely than not to say RAFO to most questions, but there's some pretty tough terminology up front in the book. Warren is the one example I mentioned, perhaps what being "aspected" means if that comes up, but perhaps help with the geography would be the most warranted? Especially off-Genebackis. I'm not super worried that she won't like it, though I think a little reassurance couldn't hurt in terms of letting her know the understanding DOES dawn as one progresses.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 04 May 2010 - 09:19 PM

[Spiridon_Deannis]

I have reread GotM 3 times (looks like everytime I read a different book...) - once specifically with all these complaints in mind (was more of a check-thru, I guess).
And it is curious - come to think of it, there is really a big bunch of names, but until Pale only 2-3 different plotlines. The difficulty comes (IMHO) from the unusual build-up; nothing in the first 150 pages conforms to traditional conventions of the genre, which leaves you with one hell of a bloodbath in the beginning and no f*cking clue what the f*ck THAT was or anything - for the matter - is about. But it´s two very shadowy guys and blood and guts everywhere...

...which is so darn, darn intriguing !

And Pale...Pale is the antithesis of traditional fantasy. You get the aftermath of a major battle plus some retrospective glances of what this mindfuck was about - which is as anticathartic as it can get. And then you get introduced to the Bridgeburners...which by that time have been crunched into pulp...plus some retrospective glances of the legend behind it - which is as anticathartic as it can get. An almost at the same time, he serves up a veeery creepy puppet.

...which is so darn, darn intriguing ! You gotta love that puppet !

IMHO I´ll second the opinion that this series is best for *jaded fantasy readers*. I have been reading the genre since '75 (yep, I'm a somewhat older fuck), but gotten ever more bored with the genre in the late 90s. Guess this series brought me back. Definitely NOT for readers that want their fantasy read following certain conventions & structured *conservatively*.
Very likely to prevent MBotF from becoming a blockbuster, but what the f*ck do I care...

[Sinisdar Toste]

Spiridon_Deannis, on 04 May 2010 - 09:33 PM, said:

Very likely to prevent MBotF from becoming a blockbuster, but what the f*ck do I care...

Thats the SE spirit!

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Sinisdar Toste, on 04 May 2010 - 11:35 PM, said:

Spiridon_Deannis, on 04 May 2010 - 09:33 PM, said:

Very likely to prevent MBotF from becoming a blockbuster, but what the f*ck do I care...

Thats the SE spirit!

Well, if I wanted blockbuster, I´d go for Tairy, now wouldn´t I ? Eat shit, folks - millions of flies can´t err...
(OT: Then again, Tairy´s TV-series got cancelled. There is a God, after all... )

[EsotericForest]

I think the hardest part about getting into the book is understanding the magic system, and the fact that you get quite a few character names, and place names all thrown at you at once. Not to mention you have several races that nobody has ever heard of. No elves here

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

McLovin, on 06 December 2006 - 11:00 PM, said:

Now see, it's not so much the beginning-that's-not-really-a-beginning that I found difficult, it's just the sheer volume of information that SE hurls at you on every page. Hurts my itty bitty head...

Yeah, this was what I found to be the biggest hurdle. Compared to many other well regarded fantasy authors, his writing style is just so dense that it is hard at first to slog through it. However, after the first hundred or so pages, one quickly acclimates to his style. Yeah, it's definitely just the sheer and daunting density of his writing that makes this book so hard to read in the beginning.

[EsotericForest]

Well here are the options...

1: Read a book that involves a farm boy from an obscure land...thrown into the turmoil of the "real world". Where he will discover a great evil rising in another distant land, ruled by a dark lord bent on the destruction of the known world. By the end of the book (or series) the boy somehow finds his inner power, which is enough to overpower the more supremely experienced and powerful dark lord.

2: Read a book (or series) where you're thrown into a highly complex world, which is historically as well as culturally rich. Where you may struggle many times to get a grasp on what is actually happening, but when it all comes together it all makes perfect and beautiful sense. A series that, despite your best efforts, you are completely unable to predict the final outcome...which makes everything more exciting.

So clearly option #1 is a much easier read (Though actually the droll, mundane story will bog it down so much it is actually difficult to read) as far as understanding what is happening goes. However option #2 sounds much more difficult to read and understand, but the final outcome is well worth it. I don't know about you guys (Though you're here...so clearly I know where you stand ) but I would choose option #2.

[worry]

That's not many options!

[EsotericForest]

I was making a point

[Ramonb]

I too put this book down over and over again until I finally got into it. The reason why I kept putting it down was/is due to "word choice." While the book was good, it almost felt like SE was abusing vocabulary unnecessarily. For example: "A beautiful women held a dagger to my throat" would be written like this "A pulchritudinous suffragette held a paster to my tubular cavity" by SE. It was a good book, but MY GOD, just say what you want to say normally. I kept stopping and saying to myself "Really....couldn't he just have just said that without the vocabulary peacock."

[MTS]

You've obviously never read any of Stephen Donaldson's works.

This post has been edited by MTS: 14 May 2010 - 04:17 PM

[Ramonb]

MTS, on 14 May 2010 - 04:16 PM, said:

You've obviously never read any of Stephen Donaldson's works.

Nope. Like alot of fantasy fans, I started with WOT, then Eragon, Magicians apprentice series, GRRM, Mistborn, and I forget how many others. All of those other stories flowed well and the writing was "normal" and allowed me to create a more precise mental picture of the settings. That's the frustrating part about the Malazan series; its good, but it would be even better if it was less verbose, especially in regards to his adjectives. Alot of the words that he uses are not common everyday language, and I'm forced to try and derive the meaning through context; unfortunately, though, that muddles the mental image of the story...it leaves "gaps" in the picture.

[EsotericForest]

The vocabulary wasn't as big of a deal to me, though I do understand where you're coming from. That being said I really love words, especially the more exotic ones. While they can be greatly overused, having some thrown in adds maturity to the text, in my opinion. You really don't want a book to read like a comic book. To use your example:

"A beautiful woman held a dagger to my throat"

One could write that...but is it really that interesting to read? Shouldn't one describe the feel of the blade? The scent of the woman? The feelings of fear and possibly excitement of having a beautiful woman so close? I am getting a little side-tracked though, because the point you were trying to make wasn't based on writing detail or creativity, it was founded on vocabulary. However, my point is that when you add detail to a scene like I suggested, it adds tension and makes you crave more...just like adding words that are more, shall we say...esoteric? They have a similar effect to me, and add a little more intrigue to the book. Besides, reading some of these words will make you curious as to their meaning, which may cause you to pick up a dictionary. In the end you've now broadened your own vocabulary...something that needs to happen to 99% of Americans in my opinion. We live in a society where the average person is unable to form intelligent sentences on any consistent basis. When every other word begins with an "F" and rhymes with "duck", you know the culture wasn't pay very close attention in English class.

So take it as an opportunity to learn.

[Ramonb]

EsotericForest, on 14 May 2010 - 10:29 PM, said:

The vocabulary wasn't as big of a deal to me, though I do understand where you're coming from. That being said I really love words, especially the more exotic ones. While they can be greatly overused, having some thrown in adds maturity to the text, in my opinion. You really don't want a book to read like a comic book. To use your example:

"A beautiful woman held a dagger to my throat"

One could write that...but is it really that interesting to read? Shouldn't one describe the feel of the blade? The scent of the woman? The feelings of fear and possibly excitement of having a beautiful woman so close? I am getting a little side-tracked though, because the point you were trying to make wasn't based on writing detail or creativity, it was founded on vocabulary. However, my point is that when you add detail to a scene like I suggested, it adds tension and makes you crave more...just like adding words that are more, shall we say...esoteric? They have a similar effect to me, and add a little more intrigue to the book. Besides, reading some of these words will make you curious as to their meaning, which may cause you to pick up a dictionary. In the end you've now broadened your own vocabulary...something that needs to happen to 99% of Americans in my opinion. We live in a society where the average person is unable to form intelligent sentences on any consistent basis. When every other word begins with an "F" and rhymes with "duck", you know the culture wasn't pay very close attention in English class.

So take it as an opportunity to learn.

It did broaden my vocabulary. I guess I just wish that I had been able to paint a "clearer" picture in my head as I read it through. On another note, I finished up GOTM over a year ago, and now I'm ready to start DG (I've been busy with work and school). I've been trying to rehash my memory, and a few questions keep coming up. What exactly is the function of the Azath house? I vaguely remember the Jaghut as being very very powerful, was he (are they/jaghuts) as powerful as ascendants, or was there something special about that one in particular? I could go back and look it up, but I just can't muster the energy to spend awhile paging through it, if you could just provide me some quick summary, that would save me some time. Oh, and a bit more clarity on the Warrens...they are confusing. The way that I interpret the Warrens is that they are different dimensions through which mages can harness power...am I on the right track there? Are Warrens and holds the same?

This post has been edited by Ramonb: 15 May 2010 - 12:06 AM

[SpectreofEschaton]

Erikson uses difficult vocabulary? That's news to me. I've never even heard anyone make that complaint about this series, before. Like someone above said, Donaldson is the one who'll have you going to the dictionary every other page just to figure out what you just read.

As regards your questions, without spoiling anything,

1. Azath are agencies of balance, they arise to contain unchecked power.

2. Jaghut as a race are very powerful and have access to the Elder Warren Omtose Phellack which, among other things, can cause global ice-ages. Raest (the Tyrant) was an exceptionally powerful and exceptionally psychotic Jaghut who could very well have been a Jaghut Ascendant using some definitions of the term. He was certainly more powerful than many Ascendants, and also many Gods, as I believe Tool mentions.

3. As regards Warrens, that's a decent definition for where you are now. Things will become clearer later on.

Enjoy DG!

[Ramonb]

SpectreofEschaton, on 15 May 2010 - 03:07 AM, said:

Erikson uses difficult vocabulary? That's news to me. I've never even heard anyone make that complaint about this series, before. Like someone above said, Donaldson is the one who'll have you going to the dictionary every other page just to figure out what you just read.

As regards your questions, without spoiling anything,

1. Azath are agencies of balance, they arise to contain unchecked power.

2. Jaghut as a race are very powerful and have access to the Elder Warren Omtose Phellack which, among other things, can cause global ice-ages. Raest (the Tyrant) was an exceptionally powerful and exceptionally psychotic Jaghut who could very well have been a Jaghut Ascendant using some definitions of the term. He was certainly more powerful than many Ascendants, and also many Gods, as I believe Tool mentions.

3. As regards Warrens, that's a decent definition for where you are now. Things will become clearer later on.

Enjoy DG!

Thanx man. Started reading DG last night, and it seems that the vocab is toned down enough to not be a distraction.

[Lusipher]

I haven't found the vocabulary to be a problem with this series(as my Mom told me for many years, "Go look it up!"), it's more the way things are phrased. Perhaps Erikson writes things that way on purpose in some parts, but in others, it makes for hard-to-read sentences. Needlessly so, in my opinion; I've found that rearranging words in the sentence makes it come off easier. I've also found myself annoyed, at times, by the way he seems to overuse said-there are other adjectives that can be used to express dialogue. And finally, groupings of 3 or 4 sentences that could be easily combined into one or two sentences. All minor annoyances that I usually rearrange in my head as I read, but somewhat glaring when I come across them.

[EsotericForest]

I'm 240 pages into a reread of Gardens of the Moon...and I'm not seeing the vocabulary as much of a problem. There's really only the occasional word that stumps me.

[Harvester]

It's weird seeing natives complaining about difficult vocabulary.
The only word I had to look up was rook... come to think of it, that's pretty pathetic.