[tiam]

Got into town early for work and decided to look in WHSmith for books. There was the dark tower novels (bought wolves of the calla) and Neil Gaiman (heard of him on thi forum also would like to know if it was worth buying)

But the majority seemed to be copies of Robert Jordan. Heard of him on these forums but should i buy the series or not? I need something to tide me over till RG. Want to finish Dark Tower series but that wont take me till April.

So any help would be appreciated. As always thanks and your opinion will influence me very much

[GardenGnome]

Wow, I thought everyone at one point or another had read Jordan.


Jordan, Jordan, where to start... He shows startling resemblances to Dune, for one. At times. If you read it the right way.
But anyway: He starts really good. The first 3 books are great. The next few are ok, and then it all collapses into soap opera. And no, not interesting soap opera, like GRRM, but boring Home and Away soap opera. Then you add that he'll die of cancer before he finishes his series, and you'll never read the end...

[caladanbrood]

I thought everyone had too Gnome...

He's right though, the first ones are good (I would even stretch it as far as saying the first 5) but it's degenerated horribly since then:(

[QuickTidal]

Jordan is a hack.....that is all.

Oh, but if you haven't read Gaiman yet...do so, he is a god! Try Stardust or Neverwhere or Anansi Boys. The new short story collection "Fragile Things" is brilliant!

[Morgoth]

Should read American Gods and Neverwhere first I would say. And in my opinion, Smoke and Mirrors is the better short story collection. but yeah, Gaiman is god

Now jordan is another beast entirely. I wouldn't bother to be honest. book 6-10 are not worth the hassle what so ever i my opinion

[QuickTidal]

Morgoth;136548 said:

Should read American Gods and Neverwhere first I would say. And in my opinion, Smoke and Mirrors is the better short story collection. but yeah, Gaiman is god

Now jordan is another beast entirely. I wouldn't bother to be honest. book 6-10 are not worth the hassle what so ever i my opinion

Really? You liked Smoke & Mirrors better? Hmmm. I love Smoke & Mirrors too, but maybe it was just the subjects in FT I preferred a bit.

Yeah, American Gods needs reading early on in a Gaiman reading spree. I am actually currently re-reading American Gods. I forgot how good it was.

[amphibian]

tiam;136518 said:

But the majority seemed to be copies of Robert Jordan. Heard of him on these forums but should i buy the series or not?

No, do not buy the series.

You will hate yourself for getting involved with the characters and story after you see the decline into weird, inane attempts at intrigue and lack of actual events in the latter books.

Better to remain wondering than to know and hate. In this case, ignorance actually is better than knowledge. Besides, if people keep making his awful products bestsellers, why would publishers or authors put the effort into making a good book, like SE did/does?

Gaiman's American Gods is good, Anansi Boys not so good. Neverwhere is a decent brisk read, but you really should check out the Sandman series (in graphic novel format). I'd start with Seasons of Mist (number four) and see if you like it.

Each volume should run you about twenty bucks, and you can decide if you like it enough to get the others. Then you go back and get numbers one, two, three etc.

[ChrisW]

buy the the first one and get over the homage to tolkien(first half of the book). If you like it, buy the next one. Repeat until you no longer enjoy it or you get to the end. In other words make up your own mind. Personally it's my favourite series.

[Whelp]

The WoT-series is not that bad - but it definitely surfs the fine line between homage and plagiarism.
The first 5 books are worth reading, after that, the degeneration into a very boring soap opera begins - but by that time, you just might be hooked enough to continue anyway...

But imho, Gaiman is much better...

[ChrisW]

but it definitely surfs the fine line between homage and plagiarism.

mb for people with pea brains

[fan_83]

i prefer the first 6. lord of chaos is one of my fav books esp the ending

[Whelp]

ChrisW;136645 said:

mb for people with pea brains

Care to elaborate? Here, or in pm, or otherwise?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Books 1-3 are genuinely excellent works of fantasy. Jordan acknowledges that he was deliberately channeling Tolkein in book 1, but he claims that was just to ease the reader into the world of the books. As noted already, he also owes a great debt to Frank Herbert, among others, but the writing is good enough that you forgive him.

Depending on who you ask, 4-6 are worthwhile, but then the series loses focus. I was irretrievably bound up with the characters by this point and had no choice but to continue reading, but there is definitely a marked decrease in quality, and as you can see from the above responses that is not just my opinion. I gave up a reread recently during book 6, wasn't really fussed about going further, but I could easily reread the early books many times.

7-10 are, to put it baldly, awful. There are a few bright spots - anyone who's read Winter's Heart should know what I mean - but Jordan introduces loads of new characters, all but drops his hero, and takes his bizarre portrayal of women to new ridiculous extremes.

Most people agree that 11, Knife of Dreams, was an improvement. But I think that's more a statement of how low expectations had dropped by then, than any kind of genuine praise for book 11.

And, sadly, Robert Jordan is terminally ill. Although he remains upbeat, I worry that he won't write the end of the series. He claims that only one book remains unwritten, but acknowledges that it will have to be massive (he jokes you will need a wheelbarrow to take it from the store). If I had to predict how many were left I would say at least 2, based on the pace of the story recently (glacial) and what is left to cover, and that would also take him to 13 books.

What really makes the series for me is the Forsaken - particularly Lanfear, Demandred and Ishamael. They are great characters, and I don't know of any prior work that Jordan bodily lifted the concept from so they might even be original.

[Abyss]

Re: RJ's Wheel of Time - wait for it to end, then read the whole thing. That way when you're suffering thru the dreck of the latter books, you have recent memories of the great first 5-6 to carry you thru.

Re: Anything by Neil Gaiman - oh hell yes.

- Abyss, just semi-completed his Sandman gn collection.

[Werthead]

ChrisW;136645 said:

mb for people with pea brains

I think that's out of line. Just about everyone here has pointed out the 'debt' that Jordan owes to Herbert and Tolkien (not to mention Tolstoy, which Jordan himself acknowledges, and Hardy for some of his names) and it is well-established that he borrows a lot of his storyline from mythology. What, everyone here has 'pea brains'? I would expect a more robust debate than that.

Anyhow, my own analysis of the series:

The Wheel of Time's central desire is to rewrite the traditional, formulaic epic fantasy saga for the modern age. It even has a farmboy who discovers he has a destiny and sets out to save the world. However, Jordan subverts this nicely throughout the opening book of the series. His world is colder and more brutal than you'd expect and there is a nice sense of a society that is both familiar and alien at the same time (with women who have equal power to men in many nations, for reasons that seem fairly plausible). His sense of time and place is good, with the books coming across as an 18th Century drama set in a world of 14th Century technology. His attention to detail is superb in the first few books, giving his world a real feeling of weight. Although since outstripped by Bakker and Martin, Jordan's sense of history is also nicely well done and he understands the value of simultaneously pushing forward the current storyline whilst unveiling more of his world's painstakingly-constructed background. The Wheel of Time's immense depth of history, breadth of societies and general feeling of being a three-dimensional entity is easily its strongest point. Up until recently (the late 1990s), Jordan's world was easily the strongest secondary world created in fantasy since Middle-earth.

The writing is reminiscent of Stephen King, being nicely approachable and easy to read with occasional flashes of deeper ability. Jordan has fairly obvious archetypal characters, but gives them enough psychological depth to make them interesting. Mat's maturing over the series from a young rake to a guy with more of a sense of responsibility may hardly be the most original plot arc, but it is handled well, and Mat becomes by far the most interesting of the original cast by the time the books approach their climax. Perrin's grappling with authority and with his own inner rage makes an interesting subplot in later volumes, although this perhaps not handled as well as it could have been. The dilemmas faced by Rand, the central character, are perhaps closer to Paul Atreides at times than one feels entirely comfortable with, but are nevertheless more interesting than a stock fantasy author usually gives the hero. Rand's growing arrogance and stubborness in the second half of the series is an intriguing take on the 'power corrupts' motif. Jordan keeping Rand off-stage for much of the latter half of the series also keeps him fresh and interesting. There's no way the series could have lasted this long if it remained focused solely on this one character.

The storyline has a very nice evolution to it, starting as an action-adventure storyline and transforming gradually into a high-stakes political drama, then mixing the two together as the finale approaches. The scale of Jordan's world gives him a lot of elements to play around with and integrate into the story.

Now to the pace. The story evolves nicely up until around the seventh book or so. The ramping up of the threat the Dark One poses in line with the growing power levels of the characters is handled well, even though it feels a bit D&D-like at times: Myddraal, who pose a lethal threat to the characters in the first two or three books, are despatched like reeds in the wind later on as the characters continue to 'level up', necessitating the need for more powerful threats to be introduced (the shapeshifting gholam, the end-of-level bosses of the Forsaken, random element and recurring nemesis Padan Fain). There is also a problem, pointed out by SF ubercritic John Clute, that at times the storyline feels like it is bounching back and forth between random plot coupons: "We need to find the Eye of the World!" "We need to find the cursed dagger from Shadar Logoth!" "We need to find the a'dam bracelet in Tarabon!" "Quick! We must find the Bowl of Winds!" This can get wearying after a while.

Book 7, which for my money is the last 'good' book in the series, does a sterling job of setting up the penultimate phase of the story. Our heroes are suddenly all in place to move towards the ultimate resolution of the saga and, as Jordan said at the time, it was easy to see how the series could be wrapped up in perhaps three more books, making for an excellent ten-book fantasy series. However, Jordan dropped the ball. He tried a few experimental things which didn't work and his storylines got completely out of step with one another. The monster had finally slipped its leash, and it took Jordan three increasingly unfocused, tediously-plotted books to get it back on track. At the same time his writing skills slipped a little and you can sense the disillusionment with the series creeping in. Previously okay, if somewhat overdone, character touches suddenly become comedy caricatures of themselves (the braid-tugging, sniffing, folding-arms-under-breasts). Lots of chapters had nothing happening but the characters sitting around talking about the plot rather than getting on and advancing the plot. The Forsaken, the most feared servants of the ultimate force of evil in the universe, turned out to actually be the Keystone Cops. Books 8-10 (and 10 in particular) are pretty much reviled for not so much being bad in themselves (and they are) but also for sullying the memories of the excellent opening volumes.

But there is a bright light at the end of the tunnel. Book 11 was a lot better than that prior few books. Although some problems remain (the writing is still not as crisp and flowing as it was at the start and the pacing, although much increased, still isn't returned to furious page-turning status), there is a tremendous sense of the sun coming out from behind the clouds. The scenes at the end of the book do give you some hope that the end is finally in sight. And whilst Jordan is seriously ill, his condition has recently improved somewhat and he has claimed he can finish A Memory of Light within twelve months.

So there you have it: The Wheel of Time: IMO, the good outweighs the bad. Depending on your patience, you may find it worthwhile. I would seriously recommend skipping Books 8-10 and instead just reading online plot summaries, though.

[McLovin]

I loved WoT when it first came out, but after book 6, the story just goes nowhere. And really, even before then, there was a lot of going nowhere in the subplots, like Luc/Isam/Slayer, the Children of Light, "Who killed Asmodean?" or the Seanchan Seekers of Truth. It's just kind of stalled under its own weight.

Also, the Forsaken for me were written unevenly. Sometimes they act like The Evil Overlords Who Want Death and Destruction Because...Well, They're Evil, and other times they're like petulant children competing for Daddy's affection.

The biggest failing though, is how the character of Rand has developed...or, more to the point, blanked out. He's offstage so much in the later books, and when he is onstage, his thoughts and motivations aren't well explained. IMO he's become a cipher, and I no longer care what happens to him.

[Astra]

Werthead;136756 said:

(not to mention Tolstoy, which Jordan himself acknowledges)

Do you mean Russian writer who wrote War and Peace?

[stone monkey]

The problem with the later WoT books is IMO, in common with a lot of Big Name Authors, Jordan's publishers were scared of editing him. And he really needed the input of a good (and brave) editor for a few of those books.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I thought it was more that he had a guaranteed reader base, and knew very well that anything with his name on it would be a bestseller. Which is a big motivation to spin things out as long as possible.

[Werthead]

astra_lestat;136781 said:

Do you mean Russian writer who wrote War and Peace?

Yes.

Quote

"It's a fantasy War and Peace, a story not only of individuals but also of cultures clashing across a continent. It will take at least three more books to finish." - Robert Jordan in SFX#24, April 1997

Oh yeah, something else that WoT does quite well to start off is the mutability of knowledge. It's not quite the full-on 'unreliable narrator' motif that say Gene Wolfe uses in its full power, but it is quite an interesting idea, people forgetting stuff after several months is human nature. Again, this idea gets a bit daft towards the end (I'm still not sure about Nynaeve forgetting to tell Rand about the Tanchico bracelet), but it's an interesting idea used at the start of the series and again quite original (until Martin and Bakker did it equally well, if not better). In a Brooks book, for example, when two characters meet who've been having seperate adventures, they seem to instantly exchange information and later on know what the other person's been up to in tiny detail, which is lame.