[Astra]

The first 7 books of WoT are so much better than a whole War and Peace

[Abyss]

Just to add my $0.02, part of the 'problem' is/was that on the strength of the first 7 'good' books, 8-10 still made bestseller lists the world over. Sure, you read the amazon comments and the reviews and the books were near universally panned, but people still bought them. Lots. Often on the hope that it would get better.

On that basis, RJ didn't even need to improve in book 11. He really could have dragged out 3-4 more crap books of sniffing, pointless recaps, random plot deviations, i-see-dead-people, protagonist-trapped-under-rock, and we (speaking generally) would have bought them. I'm almost amazed that quality-control did kick in at all with book 11 and the alleged conclusion in book 12.

At least with the supposed book 12 in a year or so, we're spared the possibility that he does find himself unable to complete the series and subsequent RA Salvatore/KJ Anderson/Chris Golden death match for the right to continue the series.

- Abyss, would have put 20 on Salvatore, he's older and wily-er.

[amphibian]

Abyss;137272 said:

- Abyss, would have put 20 on Salvatore, he's older and wily-er.

Not to mention that he poses with a sword in his bio pic and Anderson is a middle-aged endomorph.

[tiam]

amphibian;136624 said:

No, do not buy the series.

You will hate yourself for getting involved with the characters and story after you see the decline into weird, inane attempts at intrigue and lack of actual events in the latter books.

Better to remain wondering than to know and hate. In this case, ignorance actually is better than knowledge. Besides, if people keep making his awful products bestsellers, why would publishers or authors put the effort into making a good book, like SE did/does?

Gaiman's American Gods is good, Anansi Boys not so good. Neverwhere is a decent brisk read, but you really should check out the Sandman series (in graphic novel format). I'd start with Seasons of Mist (number four) and see if you like it.

Each volume should run you about twenty bucks, and you can decide if you like it enough to get the others. Then you go back and get numbers one, two, three etc.

Thank you for putting it so bluntly as many claim that he starts well but degenerates. I shall not buy the series and may buy some Gaiman after ive read the Dark Tower series. Thank you all again for your help

[Keruli]

My top three fantasy experienceses are The Wheel of Time, A Song of Ice and Fire and Malazan Book of the Fallen. I'll be the first Jordan fan to criticize and complain about the lack of plot forwarding and the amount of lace discussions in book 8 to 10. But at the same time the fact of the matter is that I think the Wheel of Time is one of the greatest fantasy works ever made. It would be a shame if some people were not to experience it cause of the bitterness of some fans that the story isn't going the way they want it. Jordan has milked it, got a bit bogged down, yes. But the WoT is still great. And it's not easy to write such an epic and huge tale that the WoT is. I'd say that the WoT as a whole beats the crap out of at least 95% percent of all fantasy and is on par or more with the rest.

[amphibian]

Keruli;138334 said:

I'd say that the WoT as a whole beats the crap out of at least 95% percent of all fantasy and is on par or more with the rest.

This may say more about the general state of fantasy than the Wheel of Time series itself.

[Dolorous Menhir]

It could be argued that without the Wheel of Time there would be no Malazan Book of the Fallen. I'm not old enough to know firsthand, but I've seen it written that the success of the Wheel of Time revived the fantasy genre, and made it viable for authors to produce massive series like SE's or GRRM's.

So even though the WoT languished in disrepute now, we as readers and the genre as a whole owe Jordan a debt for blazing the trail, even if he later meandered into the undergrowth.

[Abyss]

I could be wrong, but i'm pretty sure every volume of the WoT, however dismal and reader bemoaned, has made a bunch of Bestseller Lists and stupid amounts of money.

And excuse my bleeding eyes, but so had Goodkind.

So think what we will about the books, the tall dollars were there and i bet you a shiny Canadian Toonie that THAT has made a chunk of difference in the fantasy market. As has Harry Potter and others of his ilk.

It's not about quality. It's about paycheques.

- Abyss, needs more ilk.

[Keruli]

amphibian;138360 said:

This may say more about the general state of fantasy than the Wheel of Time series itself.

Hehe, yeah, I thought about that angle too.

Good point, Dolorous Menhir.

Quote

And excuse my bleeding eyes, but so had Goodkind.

I'd like to apply wizard's first rule to Goodkind's success.

[QuickTidal]

Dolorous Menhir;138364 said:

It could be argued that without the Wheel of Time there would be no Malazan Book of the Fallen. I'm not old enough to know firsthand, but I've seen it written that the success of the Wheel of Time revived the fantasy genre, and made it viable for authors to produce massive series like SE's or GRRM's.

So even though the WoT languished in disrepute now, we as readers and the genre as a whole owe Jordan a debt for blazing the trail, even if he later meandered into the undergrowth.

Yeah, I don't think the first part is at all true. If WOT didn't exist we would still have the other series' that you mentioned, and we wouldn't have to dealw with crappy crappy WOT series to boot.

[Sir Thursday]

QuickTidal;138414 said:

Yeah, I don't think the first part is at all true. If WOT didn't exist we would still have the other series' that you mentioned, and we wouldn't have to dealw with crappy crappy WOT series to boot.

There is no way that publishers would have taken a risk on a project like Erikson's (although they may have done with Martin) if there wasn't a precedent for them to look at and realise they could make a profit out of long series. Given the current trend in the media to replicate what sells, there must be something which at some point was not part of that trend. IMO, that was Jordan.


Sir Thursday

[QuickTidal]

Sir Thursday;138494 said:

There is no way that publishers would have taken a risk on a project like Erikson's (although they may have done with Martin) if there wasn't a precedent for them to look at and realise they could make a profit out of long series. Given the current trend in the media to replicate what sells, there must be something which at some point was not part of that trend. IMO, that was Jordan.


Sir Thursday

You cannot attribute this to him. Cannot. Someone, somewhere would have taken a chance on big fantasy series, otherwise JORADAN himself would never have got WOT published...so to claim that if he didn't no one else would have is folly. Who knows who it would have been, but someone WOULD have eventually taken that chance. Saying that current big fantasy series wouldn't exists without WOT is like saying no one would have taken a chance and flown a plane across the atlantic if Lindberg had never done it because of the danger involved. Someone would have, it would have just been a matter of when. So sorry, I'm just not buying that logic at all.

[Tsundoku]

I'm pretty sure at the time The Eye of the World was published, WoT was only supposed to be a 4 book series. Thus, little chance was initially taken, and the resulting popularity itself bred the bloated monster we now know as WoT.

Cheers,

La Sombra, disillusioned former fan who now reads the series through inertia. But yeah, I guess my $$$ appear the same as any fanboys' to the bean-counters.

[fan_83]

without jordan to blaze the trail the chances for erikson's work to be picked up owuld have been near nil...

as much as i dispise jordan for destroying wot.. hes due credit for making the major publishing house take more chances with big fantasy series

[GardenGnome]

Not to mention the chances for Erikson to think a big fantasy series being a good idea if there wasn't any other big series around...

[Werthead]

Large book series (more than three books) that were published before Jordan:

Brooks' Shannara series.
Feist's Riftwar series.
Eddings' Belgariad/Malloreon combo.
Weis & Hickman's Dragonlance books (arguable).
Tilley's Amtrak Wars.
Asimov's Foundation Saga.
Herbert's Dune Saga

Jordan himself only planned 5-6 books when he started writing WoT. GRRM only planned a trilogy when he started ASoIaF. Goodkind was originally only contracted for three books.

Erikson is the only author I know who actually planned a ten-book series, had a contract for a ten-book series from the outset, and is actually writing a ten-book series with no immediate chance of it expanding further.

[GardenGnome]

I'd argue that several of those series are in fact smaller series, set in the same world, often connected in some way. I mean, the first Shannara series was 3 books, then in 1990 (same year as first WoT book, by the way) came the first book of the second series, The Scions of Shannara.

Eddings was admittedly releasing the Malloreon from 88 and onwards. However, again a second series. Does anyone know if the original series was supposed to be 5 books from the onset?

Feist has written a lot of books, yes, but all trilogies, with the exception of the Serpentwar series - but that was from 94 to 96 or so, and only 4 books. He's also planning on expanding the Krondor books, I think...

Anyway, as you yourself point out: it's never the idea from the start to write that many books. But money talks.

[Werthead]

Eddings was supposed to write 5 from the start (it was his contract with Del Rey Books) with The Belgariad. I think he wanted three, but Lester del Rey argued him up.

[amphibian]

WHAT?!? NO MENTION OF WILLIAM SHATNER?

TekWar published in 1989. The rest of the series: two in 1991, two in '93, and one every year from '94 to '97.

Someone would have taken a flier on Martin or Erikson if Jordan hadn't come along. Tolkien, Asimov and Hebert are still making big money decades after publication. Not to mention the Star Wars, Star Trek books, the enduring success of D&D, Magic and that Warhammer thingy.

The publishing bigwigs may be middle-aged women who love cookbooks and textual soap operas, but they're motivated by the bottom line - fantasy books sell.

[QuickTidal]

Werthead;138531 said:

Large book series (more than three books) that were published before Jordan:

Brooks' Shannara series.
Feist's Riftwar series.
Eddings' Belgariad/Malloreon combo.
Weis & Hickman's Dragonlance books (arguable).
Tilley's Amtrak Wars.
Asimov's Foundation Saga.
Herbert's Dune Saga

Jordan himself only planned 5-6 books when he started writing WoT. GRRM only planned a trilogy when he started ASoIaF. Goodkind was originally only contracted for three books.

Erikson is the only author I know who actually planned a ten-book series, had a contract for a ten-book series from the outset, and is actually writing a ten-book series with no immediate chance of it expanding further.

Thank you Werthead...this is a good point!