[blewin]

I hope Steve would give us more hints soon. This child is just too intriguing!

[Onrack the breakable]

Reading back thru BH for the dozenth time it seems now that Grub has a particular affinity to the cattle dog Bent. And the descriptions of Bent make him sound like a Deragoth in disguise. Hmm. Probably irrelevant. I don't see how Grubs supernatural godlike foreknowledge can be explained easily. In fact the more I think about it, the less likely the explanations seem. Like now I'm wondering if Grub is Togg (or Shadowthrone) in disguise. It seems Grub usually has a runny nose just like the dogs. And that little girl that Fiddler carrys out of Y'ghatan her runny nose must mean she is Fanderay in disguise. Hahaha!

It may be better if SE just kills Grub off because even a half rational explanation for his abilities seems very difficult.

I thought Kettle was pretty well explained at least compared to Grub. Kettle did seem to be a descendant of the Eresal but then supposedly so is all of humanity. I thought she was related to Shurq Ellale by more than "adoption" and that dragon kin little boy was called "Found" Ellale. Related or does Ellale just mean noname, Smith, or bastard?

Anyway, its just that Grub is so out of nowhere. If he was explained as well as Kettle I wouldnt mind. A little mystery is ok, but when something real strange like Grub comes along and everyone just shrugs him off as just a precocious little nipper it seems a bit too much.

[Onrack the breakable]

The Bonehunters really introduced alot more new "who the f--- is that?" characters. Just off the top I think of Faradan Sort, Madan'Tul Rada, Ruthan Gudd, Deadsmell, Throatslitter, and probably a dozne others just in the 14th. Of course, being soldiers they don't need any introduction or background since theyre just soljers. I was also wondering why that lapdog Roach bit some Kundrl in the ankle and wouldn't let go? Thats the first time that dog was mentioned biting anyone and I suspect the person she bit was some Nameless One spy, or even some nasty ascendant or something else up to no good.

I liked Grub better when he did and said things that a precocious, budding genious (like a young Kruppe or QB) might do. But even back when he was first introduced, there is the chapter quote saying about him being First Sword of the late empire period. But first swords are fighters not mages, and while they may be cunning and brilliant overall, that arcane wizardly knowledge seems out of scope.

In BH tho, Grub shows foreshadowing that is more detailed than the elder god K'rul revealed to Toc the younger.

Frankly, I hate the foreshadowing as it suggests that certain destinys are already fixed in place and everything everyone does in all these books is pointless. Of course it is pointless since its a fantasy book, but I mean pointless in the context of the book. Unless the books are all about being pointless, which I admit could be the point. Hehe.

[Oceao]

It has been a while, but I always connected Grub with Coltaine/Chain of Dogs. He's not the reincarnation right? That's someone else back in Wickan land?

Actually I was pretty sure he was the child given to keneb, and the relationship with Bent reinforces that at least something is going on from the chain of dogs

[Onrack the breakable]

Sometimes I think Grub is Coltaine too. Maybe spiritwalking or something, which may make the most sense of all the way he appears and disappears and stuff. And sings Wiccan songs and wears Wiccan clothes. That wouldn't require him to be an actual god, but since Wiccans reiterate instead of ascending Coltain would be somewhat of the equivalent of an ascendant, thus the godly seeming knowledge. And he was wrong at least once with the Eresal, so maybe the future there isn't fixed. Its just that supposedly by virtue of reiterating and "been there and done that" so much he just has a real good idea of what is LIKELY to happen. Although patterns repeat throughout history, even if someone studied this for millions of years, there is no way they could predict specifics like Grubb does. Except like carnival spiritualist tricksters do by saying, "Is there someone named John Smith in the audience? Your Mom's spirit is angry with you.." - but my mother is still alive- "Someone shut that fool up!"

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Onrack the breakable;143503 said:

Sometimes I think Grub is Coltaine too. Maybe spiritwalking or something, which may make the most sense of all the way he appears and disappears and stuff. And sings Wiccan songs and wears Wiccan clothes. That wouldn't require him to be an actual god, but since Wiccans reiterate instead of ascending Coltain would be somewhat of the equivalent of an ascendant, thus the godly seeming knowledge. And he was wrong at least once with the Eresal, so maybe the future there isn't fixed. Its just that supposedly by virtue of reiterating and "been there and done that" so much he just has a real good idea of what is LIKELY to happen. Although patterns repeat throughout history, even if someone studied this for millions of years, there is no way they could predict specifics like Grubb does. Except like carnival spiritualist tricksters do by saying, "Is there someone named John Smith in the audience? Your Mom's spirit is angry with you.." - but my mother is still alive- "Someone shut that fool up!"

I don't think he's Coltain. If I remember correctly, wasn't there a scene where we are shown Coltain being reborn elsewhere? Also, SE has said we won't see Coltain again, and we're seeing plenty of Grub.

[Blind]

Yes, Coltaine is reborn on the Wickan Plains in the epilogue of DG, so he cannot possibly be Grub in 7 Cities at the same time.

[Dolorous Menhir]

And Grub is too old to be Coltaine reborn.

[Onrack the breakable]

Alot of people seem to do spiritwalking type thing where it seems like they are really there but their body is elsewhere. Thats why I said it sounded like Coltain spiritwalking. If he's spiritwalking he may control how old he appears to be. I never meant it was actually the Coltain babe reborn, just maybe his spirit. Like an elder god, he seems to just appear and say or do something obscure and then disappear.

For the most part the people that ever see Grub are very busy people with alot to do. So that can be explained away. It seems fairly acceptable in Malazan universe for a god to posses someone like Cotillion did Apsalar. As Apsalar said to Ganoes in BH, "Cotillion played by the rules." Apsalar is the only one that we have any info on at all, but it seems likely Grub is another.

But does a god even have to posses someone or can they just do like K'rul and make a "limited manifestation"? Why posses someone if you just want to nudge things? I think thats what Grub is doing.

But then how and why would a god become a future First Sword of the Late Empire period? Thats the thing, I would just prefer obscure and meaningless attempts at poetry and philosophy instead of glimpses into the future which may do nothing more than back SE into a corner that nothing can explain.

Unless Grub is a child of the Eresal and can travel in time and blithely introduce paradox after paradox. This is fantasy after all, it doesn't have to make sense. I just can't get into SF/fantasy books that play with timetravel though. Well, one exception. I did enjoy Modesetti's Timegods (I forget the exact spelling of author name and book) but that was because Loki was such a clever and cleanly nefarious main character. He makes Tehol look like a brainless idiot in comparison.

[Sol Invictus]

I don't think Grub is too old to be Coltaine reborn. After all, Coltaine is the child of a Mhybe, and we all know how fast they grow. Regardless, I don't actually think that Grub is Coltaine reborn. If anything, we're more likely to see an adult or at least adolescent Coltaine leading the Wickan armies with Nil and Nether against the Pogrom, assuming that their Mhybes function in the same way as the one who carried Tattersail.

I would wager that Grub is simply being used as something of a vessel of the Eres'al, or possibly Togg and Fanderay in the same way that T'Amber was used to draw the new cards in the Deck of Dragons and hand them over to Fiddler, and fight in defense of Tavore during their short stay on Malaz Island. You will recall that Grub's reappearance on Malaz Island was also accompanied by 'loud shrieks' and animal sounds elsewhere in the city. I would assume that some of his 'friends' (as mentioned by Fiddler during the Game) followed him out from the Beast warren that they passed through.

With that in mind, he's probably special to Togg and Fanderay.

In any case, there's nothing wrong with prophecies. Even his own prophecies are malleable. Had Keneb failed to take heed of his warnings to stay a day longer, the Bonehunters would've never made it onto the fleet and everyone would have died by the hands of the Edur, if not the Empress later on. And there's no telling what Erikson can come up with - perhaps we're in store for a situation in which people fail to heed his words, and disaster strikes. I'd expect many people to die right then, and it wouldn't be beyond Erikson to do a thing like that. After all, he's the same guy who gave us the Chain of Dogs and Whiskeyjack's death. Besides, we all know how the prophecies turned out for the Letherii - the Ceda and Brys's plans for the Edur Emperor included.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

I dont think it's likely Grub is a vessel, as we know he is later the First Sword, which would suggest that he is a powerful individual in his own right. Of course there's always the chance he gains thos eabilities from the possesion, Apsalar style, but I dont see it as too likely- which God would choose to control a small boy?

Could be a convenient hidey-hole for Fener though....I sense a crazy theory

[Sol Invictus]

All in all, Fener's probably hiding in Stormy, his new Shield Anvil - unless Trake chose him upon Heboric's death. So as always, Grub remains an enigma, like Pust's Mule.

Some would call them 'plot devices' but I wouldn't be so quick to discredit Erikson.

[blewin]

what's with Grub's familiarity with everything Wicken? dressed Wicken style... humming Wicken song...

maybe he's someone reborn. Not Coltaine, some other Wicken person.

would love to see Nil and Nether's opinion of Grub.

[tiam]

I cant see how really. Theres only 5 relatively famous Wickans

Coltaine - Accounted for
Bult- dead and past hoods gate
Temul nil and nether are still going.

I think its merely a style hes chosen becuase he was on the chain of dogs and likely survived it from beginning to end (not quite sure how tho). Also it doesnt fit for it to be wickan as Grub was introduced before the fall

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Sorno E'nath?

Doubt it, but he was also a famous Wickan that died on the Chain of Dogs, but Im sure Nil and Nether would have picked up on it if he was a wickan.

[Dolorous Menhir]

And the Mhybe who gave birth to Grub would be...where exactly? Reiterated Wickans would be reborn to Wickans in the Wickan Plains, not on Seven Cities among population of non-Wickan refugees and Wickan soldiers who were definitely not bearing any children during the Chain. Besides Grub appears too old to be Sormo E'nath reiterated.

A Wickan reiterated is...a Wickan. Not a Seven Cities boy. If Grub was a Wickan reborn, anyone could look at him and say "look, a Wickan." We wouldn't need to speculate about Nil and Nether looking into his nature in some unspecified way, because he would be one. That's what "reiterated" means. You become the same thing again. Coltaine reiterated is going to be a Wickan named Coltaine. We've been told this explicitly. Sormo was reiterated as young Sormo after he was executed with the other warlocks by Laseen's order. Duiker had heard of the earlier Sormo. He will be reiterated again as Sormo E'nath. Not Grub.

[Not-Apsalar]

Sol Invictus;148400 said:

I don't think Grub is too old to be Coltaine reborn. After all, Coltaine is the child of a Mhybe, and we all know how fast they grow. Regardless, I don't actually think that Grub is Coltaine reborn. If anything, we're more likely to see an adult or at least adolescent Coltaine leading the Wickan armies with Nil and Nether against the Pogrom, assuming that their Mhybes function in the same way as the one who carried Tattersail.

I thought SilverFox grew faster (than normal human) because she was soletaken/bonecaster reincarnation. Am I wrong?

[Aptorian]

No Silverfox grew faster because she was eating the Mhybes lifeforce. For each year she gained the Mhybe grew weaker and weaker.

The child of I belive Udinaas living with the Imass in the memory fragment was a dragon/soletaken dragon and thus grew much faster.