Malazan Empire: Kilmandaros - Malazan Empire

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Kilmandaros

#21 User is offline   GardenGnome 

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 09:47 AM

The Imass outlived their gods (fairly certain it's plural), and I think the same was said somewhere for the Jaghut. That is, if the Imass had other gods htan the Jaghut, and the Jaghut had other gods than the Matrons.
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#22 User is offline   Locke Reaper 

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 10:09 AM

Didn't the imass worship the original beast hold before they became undead, jughat killers?
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#23 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 10:36 AM

I knew this would come up :D, my meaning -

Imass = Living, worshipping creatures who eventually learned the truth of the Holds and the gods.

T'lan Imass = Undead, godkilling, civilization destroying creatures with no hope or beliefs (prior MoI)... and no worship.

I know it says that the T'lan Imass outlived their gods, but I think they lost their faith allready in the times of the Elder Gods. That's when they discovered that many of their gods were Tyrants and started killing them off. This was before the Ritual

The Beast throne is of course a problem. Did Paran understand the meaning of the twin thrones? Were the masters gods of the T'lann Imass or just the masters of the spirit place were the Imass worshipped these ancestors and the spirits of the world, stone, water, tree's, earth, etc.
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#24 User is offline   Kage-za 

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 02:23 PM

TTT, Imass, arguably the Edur and Andii all have/had multiple gods to worship, be they younger or elder. The jaghut and T'lan Imass have indeed allegedly outlived their gods.

The "children" is pretty problematic, as Erikson could even be using it literally, given the way the gods seem to get around. There presumably were never that many FA, but there were probably enough that... ew.
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#25 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 08:03 PM

Aptorian;134176 said:

It's the last part, children who lost their way which we are unsure about.

Does getting wiped out constitute becoming lost? Had the FA changed in some way before the coming of the Edur and Andii? We just don't know.

The Dragons, TTT, KCCM, Eres, Deragoth even, seem to have become pretty lost back in the time of the Elder Gods.



Well we have to assume that the invasoion of the Edur into Wu was around the time of the first empire (imass) given Scabbys description in MT prologue. Therefore maybe that was the time that the FA lost there way when they turned on the Errant. Im clutching at straws just like everyone else :D
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#26 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 08:06 PM

tiam;134758 said:

Well we have to assume that the invasoion of the Edur into Wu was around the time of the first empire (imass) given Scabbys description in MT prologue. Therefore maybe that was the time that the FA lost there way when they turned on the Errant. Im clutching at straws just like everyone else :D


This raises the question of the Errants age, when did he come into existance?

I know he seems old but is he time of the Elder Gods old?
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#27 User is offline   Locke Reaper 

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 08:10 PM

If krul created the warrens then they must be the oldest beings around, in a certain sense right. Unless warrens are just gateways to other realms then time would have no context, and elder gods would only apply to the malaz world?
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#28 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 08:20 PM

tiam;134758 said:

Well we have to assume that the invasoion of the Edur into Wu was around the time of the first empire (imass) given Scabbys description in MT prologue. Therefore maybe that was the time that the FA lost there way when they turned on the Errant. Im clutching at straws just like everyone else :D


No, I think the MT/RG prologues occured a significant amount of time before the creation of the First (Imass) Empire. Those passages marked the end of the age of the KCCM, and there needs to be a period of Jaghut domination in which the Imass were subjugated following this. I think this would be a significant period.

Then the First Empire was created, at the same time as the Ritual, once the Jaghut had earned the Imass' undying enmity.

We don't know when the Errant was first around. He may predate the First Human Empire, though I would think it likely that he came to godhood during it's existence, which would agree nicely with his close association with the living remnant of that Empire (Lether).
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Posted 14 November 2006 - 08:28 PM

I disagree to be honest...
He is associated with the FA... and we know from MT prologue that they were being hunted down by Silchas and kin... Plus.. from FW's visions, he is one of the realm forgers. That makes him older than First Empire

edit : oh yeah.. and master of the holds too :D
and to get this thread back on topic... from which it has drifted... Kilmandaros is an elder goddess... and she looks like a Forkrul Assail.. so go figure :D
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#30 User is offline   Jimmy 

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 01:18 AM

Kage-za;134587 said:

TTT, Imass, arguably the Edur and Andii all have/had multiple gods to worship, be they younger or elder.


I don't believe that any of the Andii had more than 1 god, let alone a god. Mother dark was all there was. Even the ignorant ones knew of Mother Dark and here 3 sons who they worshipped as subject rather than gods.

The Edur only had ignorance, so only had Scabandari and his daughters as gods to believe in and they themselves are a fallen people.
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#31 User is offline   Kage-za 

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 05:32 AM

Hetan;134777 said:

I disagree to be honest...
He is associated with the FA... and we know from MT prologue that they were being hunted down by Silchas and kin... Plus.. from FW's visions, he is one of the realm forgers. That makes him older than First Empire

edit : oh yeah.. and master of the holds too :D
and to get this thread back on topic... from which it has drifted... Kilmandaros is an elder goddess... and she looks like a Forkrul Assail.. so go figure :D


So by that reasoning...Mael is an elder God, and he sometimes looks like a balding middle age man... go figure!:D

That being said, let me amend my previous posts and say that I wouldn't be shocked if Kilmadaros is the goddess of the FA, but it is interesting that most races do not seem to have a patron god or goddess--except maybe the Tiste who are not of the founding races of Wu.

My take on the Errant (based on what Paran's conversation with Ganath in tBH) was that he was of the First Empire, like Paran is of the Malazan Empire, and later was worshipped as a god. But if he was contemporary to the FA that wouldn't work.

If the Errant is FA (or connected somehow), are there any conceivable connections to Kilmandaros?
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#32 User is offline   Jorram 

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 07:02 AM

Kage-za;135614 said:

My take on the Errant (based on what Paran's conversation with Ganath in tBH) was that he was of the First Empire, like Paran is of the Malazan Empire, and later was worshipped as a god. But if he was contemporary to the FA that wouldn't work.


According to that very conversation with Ganath, the Errant was worshipped by Imass conclaves. Moreover, she dubs him as "the Master of the Holds in my time" which is pretty black and white about him obviously preceding the First (human) Empire by milennia.
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#33 User is offline   Xaspian 

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 12:08 PM

I doubt that the Errant actually is a Forkrul Assail. Ganath says the FA tried to destroy him and all his followers.

Although it could be possible that there was some internal struggle, a FA civil war. That would be interesting.
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#34 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 12:29 PM

Well, Though it seems more likely that she's the FA godess, I is not impossible that she's the Jaguth one either. The fact that we do not know whether she's alive or dead could make that compatible with the Jaghut having outlived their gods comment.

In connection with the lost their way part. The jaghut certainly fit here, though the Imass, the FA and TT do as well. The Jaghut once had cities, they were the dominant species of Wu, but then they scattered, split, deteriorated. This might also be considered to losing ones way.
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#35 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 12:35 PM

Morgoth;135729 said:

The fact that we do not know whether she's alive or dead could make that compatible with the Jaghut having outlived their gods comment.


It was the Imass who outlived their gods. As far as I can remember, there's never been any reference to the Jaghut having gods at any point. They don't seem like pious types.

And I don't think it's fair to call the dissolution of Jaghut civilisation "losing their way". What's known about the FA history fits "lost way" much better.
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#36 User is offline   Jheral 

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Posted 24 November 2006 - 02:44 PM

Iarwain Ben-Adar;135722 said:

I doubt that the Errant actually is a Forkrul Assail. Ganath says the FA tried to destroy him and all his followers.

Although it could be possible that there was some internal struggle, a FA civil war. That would be interesting.


Take a look at this:

Bugg, on Midnight Tides p327, said:

'...an extinct people known as Forkrul Assail, who are collectively personified in our Fulcra by the personage we call the Errant...'

It does suggest a connection, doesn't it? :D
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#37 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 24 November 2006 - 02:51 PM

Conflicting evidence, unreconciled at this time. It's hard to believe either Ganath or Mael is wrong, so we must be missing some subtleties at this point. Or we are being misled.
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#38 User is offline   GardenGnome 

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Posted 24 November 2006 - 02:52 PM

Yes, but what the connection is, is still in the open...
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#39 User is offline   Jheral 

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Posted 24 November 2006 - 02:53 PM

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/errant

I like the first alternative. It kind of fits, don't you think? :D

I mean, "lost their way", and all that...
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#40 User is offline   GardenGnome 

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Posted 24 November 2006 - 03:03 PM

Yes, SE is known for using a lot of puns in names. For example, Cotillion is a dance, and Ultor means avenger. And who now carries the sword Vengeance?
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