[Clip]

how do we even know that the FA or Jaghut or for that matter T'lan Immas ever even had patron gods, the closest the TI ever had were the Jaghut Tyrants. Also why does Kilmadaros have to be the patron Goddess of anybody, same with the Errant. If the Errant used to be master of the Holds then he wouldnt be a Patron God of a species, Paran is now the master of the Deck of Dragons and he isnt the Patron God of anyone.

I dont like the Idea that Gods have to be the God of something or someone, You dont have to have an aspect to be worshipped, it puts too much order into the world.

[Dolorous Menhir]

clip;138336 said:

how do we even know that the FA or Jaghut or for that matter T'lan Immas ever even had patron gods, the closest the TI ever had were the Jaghut Tyrants. Also why does Kilmadaros have to be the patron Goddess of anybody, same with the Errant. If the Errant used to be master of the Holds then he wouldnt be a Patron God of a species, Paran is now the master of the Deck of Dragons and he isnt the Patron God of anyone.

I dont like the Idea that Gods have to be the God of something or someone, You dont have to have an aspect to be worshipped, it puts too much order into the world.

The T'lan Imass were stated to have outlived their (unspecified) gods. I would assume that whoever those gods were, they once held the throne(s) of the Beast Hold, since the Imass were closely associated with animals, and (in MT) the Beast Hold itself.

Kilmandaros is assumed to be the patron goddess of a species because we are told of "her children" in the RG prologue, the most likely candidates being the FA.

The Errant is known to have a past association with the FA, though differing versions have him either

arising from within - or via the worship of - the FA (Bugg/Mael)

or alternatively

being an enemy of the FA (Ganath).

I think a god generally has to be a god of "something" in the Malazan system. How many members of the Malazan pantheon lack an aspect, tendency or racial alignment? (discounting those we have scant information on)

Reading through the Ascendants of the BH glossary, examples of gods without known aspect are

Draconus
maybe the Eres, though you could make credible cases for her aspects (ie life, time)
Grizzin Farl (no information beyond name and bare fact of existence)
Sechul Lath (not in BH glossary, but same situation as Grizzin Farl, we just don't know)
Kilmandaros (no aspect given yet, but known to be associated with unknown race)

And of those Draconus is the only real possibility of an unaspected god, since we know a fair bit about him and yet no whisper of an aspect.

All the others are aspected to a well defined concept (eg tears, autumn, war) or a race (eg Rake, Osric). Many are both (eg Rake - Dark & Tiste Andii).

I would also say that gods have aspects because this is their route to receiving worship. People seem to pray more to the god with the relevant aspect, and a god without aspect would have no natural base of followers.

[Jimmy]

Aptorian;134317 said:

If the visions Ruin showed Kettle is any evidence, I'd hassard the guess that the Andii and Edur had a large role to play in the disappearence of the FA.

More precisely the big piles of dead FA could be a clue... *hint hint*

Can you remind which pg that's on. I liked the section, but I can't be bothered reading the whole book.

[Monoch Ochem]

Gut instinct: Imass. Something about the ironic way that she asked gothos why HE didn't try and sort her children out.

[Kage-za]

I like your idea, Monoch, except the extra joints don't fit, and her conversation with Gothos is pre-ritual, I believe.

[Monoch Ochem]

True Kage-za but I'm referring to the conflict between Jaghut and Imass.

As for the extra joints, it might just be a red herring. But you're right, I can't imagine SE not smirking in his deliberate vagueness when he typed that description. Maybe she created the FA...or spawned them in some way.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I'm fairly sure that the FA soul in Kettle comes from the dead FA with its skull caved in and the Eres's footprints leading up to its empty brain cavity, which Udinaas saw in one of his "vision quests". It was surrounded by a family of dead Jaghut which it had plainly killed, before being killed in turn.

Just saying, that's a much more likely candidate than Kilmandaros.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I don't know any more about what happened to Kilmandaros than anyone else does.

It doesn't have to be death or destruction or anything else final though. Mael went into retirement and his influence was little-felt for a long time. Sechul Lath & Grizzin Farl are entirely absent from the main series. Osserc also went into isolation (he's listed as an Elder God in GotM at least).

Kilmandaros may have done the same, or perhaps could be masquerading in human form, as Mael & Nightchill did (so Kilmandaros isn't very human in appearance - neither was MT-prologue Mael. Clearly they can appear other as they are). Anyone got good candidates for who Kilmandaros could be in the books?

And finally we were told that unspecified Elder Gods died in the Fall of the Crippled God. Perhaps Kilmandaros was among them.

[Abyss]

Also, consider Krul, who was sort of 'forgotten'.

- Abyss, who?

[Dark Mac]

Dolorous Menhir;141358 said:

(so Kilmandaros isn't very human in appearance - neither was MT-prologue Mael. Clearly they can appear other as they are).

Hmm? What did MT-prologue Mael look like? I don't remember him looking extraordinary at all, and I don't have my copy of MT on me to check.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Midnight Tides, on page 26, said:

Mael, Elder Lord of the Seas, was wide and squat, with deep blue skin that faded to pale gold at throat and bared belly. Lank blond hair hung unbound from his broad, almost flat pate. And in Mael's amber eyes, sizzling rage.

Blue/gold skin, amber eyes, quite short and flat skulled. Not human.

Ok, so it's not as un-human as Kilmandaros, but it still indicates he maintained an entirely different form as Bugg. Kilmandaros could do the same.

edit: Hetan!

[Abyss]

He sounds somewhat fishy, actually.

But point being, at least some EGs can change their shape. And from krul we know they can 'manifest' in a different body. And from Togg/Fancytail we know they can send their souls into another being's body.

All of which is to say, Kilimandaros could be pretty much anywhere and anyone, excluding those viewpoint and elder characters we know well enough.

- Abyss, may have dated her in uni.

[Clip]

I dont see Kilimandaros just stepping down to masquerade as a human. She could be anywhere, but the most likely candidate the Warren of Chaos, where she has lost her way.

[Monoch Ochem]

If she is FA, then she might be with them or gone to search for them. Anyone know where THEY are??? Didn't think so...

There's a lot going on in the series that is yet to be explained. I mean KCCM are back...everyone thought THEY were gone. Fener's disappeared...dead? We don't know. The Elders seem to have gone dormant but they were watchful.

Point is, let's not apply logic to rule out too much here. We thought the FA were impervious to magic...guess not. Had it not been for Gothos's ritual that FA would not have been frozen with time itself, and so later become one of Kettle's souls. Kilmandaros may be chained somewhere. As she said, the powers fighting for the fragments of KE would form alliances and war against her and Rake. Maybe someone/ones succeded in downing her.

Curious thought...say Kilmandaros IS the Elder FA goddess. Ottataral rises where there's an uncontrolled explosion of magic. It counterbalances unchecked force...like the Azath. Like the FA. Could Kilmandaros be the crucified Ottataral Dragon seen through that 'window' in the Imperial Warren? Could she have been crucified by the feral dragons warring for KE?

[Jheral]

Her appearance doesn't strike me as draconic, but then again, she isn't very well described...

Still, dragon? Wouldn't bet on it.

[Monoch Ochem]

Silchas' appearance hasn't struck anyone as particularly draconic and he's more draconic than most....even Rake. Spite does but that's just her. And think of that Galain Lord in GotM...he was a Soletaken dragon....appearances can be very deceiving Jheral. Barring the cape she wore as a symbol of her Soletaken form, Olar Ethil was not described as draconic, and even Silverfox had to ask her what her veered form was. So she could be... but the ottataral thing's a wild speculation. I like it though