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See below the interview with Terry Goodkind. How much do you like an authors views and philosophies expressed in a fantasy book?
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QUESTION: Annerinas: Will you, Mr. TG, actually ever go write a non-fiction book exploring fully your ideals and philosophy, getting it out of your system. So that it's not being presented in the next book at the expense of the actual story?
Translation: Will you please change that way you think and write, stop using your mind, stop being an individual and instead start writing books like every other hackneyed Tolkien clone on the fantasy shelves. Answer: NO
The Premise of this question and all that it entails is beneath contempt. To say that I view this notion with indignity hardly begins to cover it. What you are seeing with my novels is something unique. They are not like all the other fantasy books. A tiny group of fantasy fans happens to like things the way they are and only wants more of the same. These few do not under any circumstances; want anything to change or anything that requires thought. They want everything to stay static and simplistic. For these reasons (and others), these people do not like what I write and they never will. They even hate that my books exist, that I write things that dare to uplift and inspire.
Rather than simply reading and enjoying the many books available that they like, they spend their time railing against the one author who is different.
What I have done with my work has irrevocably changed the face of fantasy. In so doing I've raised the standards. I have not only injected thought into a tired empty genre, but, more importantly, I've transcended it showing what more it can be-and is so doing spread my readership to completely new groups who don’t like and wont ready typical fantasy. Agents and editors are screaming for more books like mine.
They can’t find any-for 3 reasons. One, copying innovation is an impossibility. Two, individually cannot be copied. They don’t grasp the essence of my work. What they end up with are authors who imitate some of the nonessential elements unique to my books, believing they must be the secret to success, much as my publishers at first believe that it was the red dragon that defined my work.
Why are editors trying to get more books like mine? Because any one of my backlist sells more copies in a month than most fantasy authors' books sell in their entire run. NAKED EMPIRE has been on the NY Times list for two months now. Far more importantly, I break genre lines and draw my ever growing sales from the much larger pool of general fiction readers who embrace my books
Typical fantasies saturate the core fantasy readers and can't grow beyond. Only a few have, like Tolkien which is why every fantasy book blurts out "The Next Tolkien!" It's a lie that only fantasy readers believe or care about. My novels are best sellers in over twenty countries, including countries like Japan where fantasy just doesn’t sell. In Australia alone, the sales of NAKED EMPIRE more than doubled over the previous book, a best seller itself.
An advertising campaign in England and Australia that appealed to general fiction readers, rather than strictly fantasy readers, along with enthusiastic word of mouth about the novel, are responsible. My true fans have chosen to think, to embrace all that life is.
They like that my books inspire them, uplift the, help them see the joy in life. Just today I received a letter that eloquently expressed a common sentiment:"I learned from the underlying messages in your books and even the messages that smacked me in the face.
I have been able to apply them to my life and they helped me a great deal. Rather strange, huh? Learning life lessons from a "fantasy book"? But then again, they are more than just "fantasy books." Mr. Goodkind, you write of beauty and majesty, and in the long run that gives me hope. So I guess the reason I'm writing you for the hope and to thank you for a message that breeds life, love,
and understanding. Thank you from the depths of my heart. Thank you for something so pure."(---Lizz from NY)
So, in essence, this question is asking me to give up bringing meaning to people's lives, give up what I love, give up using my mind, give up my success, give up my huge fan base, and give up being a singular author of unique books, and, instead, write books I don’t enjoy, becoming one of the faceless many who are all doing basically the same thing for a small group of fantasy fans who don't want anything original.
Are you beginning to grasp why this isn't ever going to happen?
Political Views in Fantasy
#2
polishgenius 
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Posted 29 January 2006 - 06:58 PM
If it's subtly done and not preachy, I couldn't care less whether there author includes personal political views in a fantasy book.
However, that interview makes me want to retch. What an arrogant, self obsessed, deluded pillock.
However, that interview makes me want to retch. What an arrogant, self obsessed, deluded pillock.
I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you.
#3
Werthead
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Posted 29 January 2006 - 08:47 PM
If you want a thorough discussion of Goodkind and his insanity (plus the insanity of his friends and fans), check this out
http://asoiaf.wester...?showtopic=2714
That thread reached 20 pages. Incredible that one author can inspire so much incredulous rage.
I think authors should drop their ideals and philosophies into their books, but only if they fairly present alternating points of view (aka GRRM and SE, even RJ to a certain extent).
http://asoiaf.wester...?showtopic=2714
That thread reached 20 pages. Incredible that one author can inspire so much incredulous rage.
I think authors should drop their ideals and philosophies into their books, but only if they fairly present alternating points of view (aka GRRM and SE, even RJ to a certain extent).
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#4
Brys
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Posted 29 January 2006 - 09:11 PM
Goodkind's hilarious - he's the best comedian in the fantasy genre. Even more so because he sincerely believes what he says. The great thing is that the interview you posted above wasn't unique at all - his general responses are similar. And then there are the fans! Just look at the official forums to see what I mean. And then there's the actual writing.
And another 7 pages of completely tearing apart his writing -
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=3332
As for the question, I don't mind seeing political views in fantasy, as long as they don't come at the expense of the story. Sometimes they can even make a story better - an obvious case is China Mieville's Iron Council - the left wing politics are very obvious, but he doesn't idealise it and he lets the reader make up their own mind, and the story is made very interesting because of the politics. I don't think it's possible to write something decent without including some kind of view - the latest Eddings novel might not, but that's because it's probably a carbon copy of one of his previous novels which was a copy of Tolkien, and he lost the views expressed in trying to make it accessible. But even the basic reaction against romanticism, as shown by Martin, Erikson, Bakker etc, is a political view. It may not be as explicit as Goodkind's, but it's still there. I don't have a problem with political views in fantasy, as long as the novel is actually a fantasy novel, not a thinly disguised political manifesto (there are probably more informative sources to go for that).
And another 7 pages of completely tearing apart his writing -
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=3332
As for the question, I don't mind seeing political views in fantasy, as long as they don't come at the expense of the story. Sometimes they can even make a story better - an obvious case is China Mieville's Iron Council - the left wing politics are very obvious, but he doesn't idealise it and he lets the reader make up their own mind, and the story is made very interesting because of the politics. I don't think it's possible to write something decent without including some kind of view - the latest Eddings novel might not, but that's because it's probably a carbon copy of one of his previous novels which was a copy of Tolkien, and he lost the views expressed in trying to make it accessible. But even the basic reaction against romanticism, as shown by Martin, Erikson, Bakker etc, is a political view. It may not be as explicit as Goodkind's, but it's still there. I don't have a problem with political views in fantasy, as long as the novel is actually a fantasy novel, not a thinly disguised political manifesto (there are probably more informative sources to go for that).
#5 Guest_bluesman_*
Posted 29 January 2006 - 10:57 PM
I just don't see the point in creating a fantasy world for it.
The whole point of political thought is that it concerns humans on Tellus((ie Earth). I just don't see the point of using a fantasy setting to make a point in real world politics.
Science Fiction yes, fantasy no. Maybe it's some help to those who never read more advanced littarature than Goodkinds but they are better off reading other more heavy weight political books.
bm
The whole point of political thought is that it concerns humans on Tellus((ie Earth). I just don't see the point of using a fantasy setting to make a point in real world politics.
Science Fiction yes, fantasy no. Maybe it's some help to those who never read more advanced littarature than Goodkinds but they are better off reading other more heavy weight political books.
bm
#6
ObsoleteResolve
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Posted 29 January 2006 - 11:16 PM
I think a fantasy world can be really good at going into ideas like that. I think it was Wolfe who said what I'm going to quote, although I am not sure:
And, well, I couldn't say it better if I tried to for years.
In most forms of fiction I think politics can be effective, but it all depends on how you deal with it. Goodkind is a hack both because of (personal opinion) his simplistic world-view and (a little more objective) that he has let characterization and plot fall to the wayside so that he can further his propaganda.
I've read some distinctly political novels-- Eriksons' Midnight Tides definitely has an underlying politics to it that is relevant to Western society, and RIchard K. Morgans' "Market Forces" definitely has some elements. In Erikson's, it doesn't take front stage: it is an element of the plot and the characters don't suffer from it's inclusion. Morgans' "Market Forces" also has that element, but he still focuses on the people and uses some really strange ideas.
Of course, it might also be that those two are a little more in line with my own philosophy/politics, so it doesn't infuriate me as much :-D
.david
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I've spent more hours than I care to count listening with feigned politeness to casuists debating the difference between science fiction and fantasy. Now I am about to tell you what the difference really is, but I warn you not to publish it in Ascalon, because the daughters of the Philistines will never believe you. The truth is that the difference is simply a matter of range. Science fiction is a pistol. It hits targets almost close enough to touch, and even the willfully ignorant can't deny that it's effective. Fantasy is a sixteen-inch naval rifle. It fires with a tremendous bang, and it appears to have done nothing and to be shooting at nothing.
-Gene Wolfe, "The Pirates of Florida and Other Implausibilities"
-Gene Wolfe, "The Pirates of Florida and Other Implausibilities"
And, well, I couldn't say it better if I tried to for years.
In most forms of fiction I think politics can be effective, but it all depends on how you deal with it. Goodkind is a hack both because of (personal opinion) his simplistic world-view and (a little more objective) that he has let characterization and plot fall to the wayside so that he can further his propaganda.
I've read some distinctly political novels-- Eriksons' Midnight Tides definitely has an underlying politics to it that is relevant to Western society, and RIchard K. Morgans' "Market Forces" definitely has some elements. In Erikson's, it doesn't take front stage: it is an element of the plot and the characters don't suffer from it's inclusion. Morgans' "Market Forces" also has that element, but he still focuses on the people and uses some really strange ideas.
Of course, it might also be that those two are a little more in line with my own philosophy/politics, so it doesn't infuriate me as much :-D
.david
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile!"- Kurt Vonnegut
#7
Oceao
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Posted 29 January 2006 - 11:46 PM
Did anyone else read some of Goodkind's series and not pick up on any political agenda? Did this phenomenon that everyone's ranting about with Goodkind not manifest until later on in the series, or did I just completely miss everything? Regardless, it was four or five years ago that I last read goodkind anyway, and I gave up after Temple of the Winds, not because of politics but because it really really blows.
I wonder how much responsibility lies with the reader with that, I mean - with the case of badkind, did he come out and say his work was politically driven *before* someone drew parallels to an agenda? Or did he get called on it in an interview and shoot his mouth off?
Personally, I don't usually try and read into or glean objective meaning from fiction of any kind and feel that doing so is dumb (much to the ire of my professors). If an author says something like, "Here's my epic fantasy about Gnomes, and p.s. its about Inuit Supremacy" i'd be put off. If the author said "Here's my epic fantasy about Gnomes" I'd be more inclined to read it, and then probably disappointed, or maybe elated were I then to find critical analysis of the series online discussing its relevance to the underground movement for Inuit world takeover.
Imagination is where wars are waged for allegiance to any ideal. the case of goodkind sounds more to me like a schism between him and other writers currently in fantasy, or the genre as an institution, and less about his books, but i might be wrong there, I haven't really followed it, obviously.
I wonder how much responsibility lies with the reader with that, I mean - with the case of badkind, did he come out and say his work was politically driven *before* someone drew parallels to an agenda? Or did he get called on it in an interview and shoot his mouth off?
Personally, I don't usually try and read into or glean objective meaning from fiction of any kind and feel that doing so is dumb (much to the ire of my professors). If an author says something like, "Here's my epic fantasy about Gnomes, and p.s. its about Inuit Supremacy" i'd be put off. If the author said "Here's my epic fantasy about Gnomes" I'd be more inclined to read it, and then probably disappointed, or maybe elated were I then to find critical analysis of the series online discussing its relevance to the underground movement for Inuit world takeover.
Imagination is where wars are waged for allegiance to any ideal. the case of goodkind sounds more to me like a schism between him and other writers currently in fantasy, or the genre as an institution, and less about his books, but i might be wrong there, I haven't really followed it, obviously.
#8 Guest_bluesman_*
Posted 29 January 2006 - 11:53 PM
But Morgan is Science Fiction. That is something else. SF like Morgans still has Earth (humans) as their reference point, same as Ayn Rand had. It makes some sense.
The whole point of fantasy is that it's not real. I would personally not take any idea concieved in a fantasy world seriously. I don't think it would work well in any serious debate either(other than making laughing stock out people).
Using real world political features in a fantasy world is of course something else - but it's just due to the authors(like in the Malazan books) not having any other point of reference to use. Unless those authors are really alien perhaps
Maybe it works in books set in the real world but using some fantasy elements (like Gaiman or Wright does)
bm
The whole point of fantasy is that it's not real. I would personally not take any idea concieved in a fantasy world seriously. I don't think it would work well in any serious debate either(other than making laughing stock out people).
Using real world political features in a fantasy world is of course something else - but it's just due to the authors(like in the Malazan books) not having any other point of reference to use. Unless those authors are really alien perhaps
Maybe it works in books set in the real world but using some fantasy elements (like Gaiman or Wright does)
bm
#9 Guest_pwilletts_*
Posted 30 January 2006 - 12:40 AM
i dont get why everyone thinks terry goodkind is a horrible author. he does have his political views in the books but that just makes it even better
#10 Guest_Fool_*
Posted 30 January 2006 - 02:53 AM
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SF like Morgans still has Earth (humans) as their reference point, same as Ayn Rand had. It makes some sense.
But you could easily argue that Ayn Rand's 'reality' is just as fantastical as many a fantasy world. It certainly didnt seem anything like the real world to me.
And BOY did her plot suffer at the expense of her agenda. A 35 page pro capitalist speech!? Give me a break!
#11
Werthead
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Posted 30 January 2006 - 01:24 PM
pwilletts said:
i dont get why everyone thinks terry goodkind is a horrible author. he does have his political views in the books but that just makes it even better
Check out the link in my post above for approximately 398 reasons why Terry Goodkind is a horrible author. In summary: gratuitous sado-masochism, inability to perform basic characterisation, inability to write in a convincing manner, tendency to steal entire plot ideas from The Wheel of Time, barking-mad delusions of grandeur, utter contempt for his fans (answering as simple, "Can we have a better map?" question with a 3-page diatribe on why you're a communist-loving hippy since you're focusing on the world at the expense of the intellectual journey). The only author I find more offensive than Goodkind is L. Ron Hubbard.
Visit The Wertzone for reviews of SF&F books, DVDs and computer games!
"Try standing out in a winter storm all night and see how tough you are. Start with that. Then go into a bar and pick a fight and see how tough you are. And then go home and break crockery over your head. Start with those three and you'll be good to go."
- Bruce Campbell on how to be as cool as he is
- Bruce Campbell on how to be as cool as he is
#12
Morgoth
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Posted 30 January 2006 - 02:17 PM
You know, we should invite the members of the Goodkind forum to come here and discuss his works with us. After all, we can't really discuss it there as we'll be banned after just a few min..
Take good care to keep relations civil
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To speak friendly, Even to the devil
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To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#13 Guest_Fool_*
Posted 30 January 2006 - 03:42 PM
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You know, we should invite the members of the Goodkind forum to come here and discuss his works with us.
Uh huh. What if some of them decide to stay? Are you willing to take that risk!? :eek:
#14
Brys
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Posted 30 January 2006 - 05:33 PM
Here's an article by Jeff Vandermeer on the topic (one that I agree with, more or less): http://www.emcit.com/emcit125.php#Politics
I don't see why you can't use a fantastical setting to address political issues. There's nothing saying fantasy has to be pre-industrial, and while it seems to be more commonly done in science fiction, some fantasy authors clearly handle it very well (China Mieville, Jeff Vandermeer and Graham Joyce come to mind). I don't think the genre should determine whether you can put views into a novel, it's how those views affect the novel. It shouldn't become simply a political manifesto with a fantasy setting, but if they are present it's likely to make it a better, more realistic, more interesting novel over all.
I don't see why you can't use a fantastical setting to address political issues. There's nothing saying fantasy has to be pre-industrial, and while it seems to be more commonly done in science fiction, some fantasy authors clearly handle it very well (China Mieville, Jeff Vandermeer and Graham Joyce come to mind). I don't think the genre should determine whether you can put views into a novel, it's how those views affect the novel. It shouldn't become simply a political manifesto with a fantasy setting, but if they are present it's likely to make it a better, more realistic, more interesting novel over all.
#15
ObsoleteResolve
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Posted 30 January 2006 - 06:07 PM
Yeah, I'm stupid. I'll chalk the whole referencing Morgan to, well, the plenty of Lortabs I've been popping to dull the pain in my as*. I had a piece of a bush. In my as*. Two inches long, a half inch in diameter.
So, that's my excuse, damnit.
.david
-god, my as* hurts...
-if anyone wants the whole sordid, somewhat entertaining story I can link them to where I posted the tale...
So, that's my excuse, damnit.
.david
-god, my as* hurts...
-if anyone wants the whole sordid, somewhat entertaining story I can link them to where I posted the tale...
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile!"- Kurt Vonnegut
#16 Guest_Fool_*
Posted 30 January 2006 - 06:14 PM
"if anyone wants the whole sordid, somewhat entertaining story I can link them to where I posted the tale..."
Go right ahead!
Go right ahead!
#17
ObsoleteResolve
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Posted 30 January 2006 - 06:39 PM
A Tale of Alcohol, Stupidity, and Shrubbery.
Just slap my ass and call me Iraq's brother. Like Iraq, I, too, have been sodomized by a bush.
.david
Just slap my ass and call me Iraq's brother. Like Iraq, I, too, have been sodomized by a bush.
.david
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile!"- Kurt Vonnegut
#18 Guest_Harold Bloom_*
Posted 30 January 2006 - 06:51 PM
Fantasy readers should not be sheltered from something just because it requires thought. The more interesting issue is whether politics should supercede literary art or vice versa. Some black critics argued that Ralph Waldo Ellison's The Invisible Man was not political enough.
Terry Goodkind is neither a great literary artist nor a sophisticated political philosopher, so it's a moot point whether he should pursue one ends above another. The best argument against political views in fantasy of Wizard's First Rule ilk is that the type of authors who write that kind of book lack the skill to achieve any ends with sufficient competence other than moving along the plot.
Terry Goodkind is neither a great literary artist nor a sophisticated political philosopher, so it's a moot point whether he should pursue one ends above another. The best argument against political views in fantasy of Wizard's First Rule ilk is that the type of authors who write that kind of book lack the skill to achieve any ends with sufficient competence other than moving along the plot.
#20 Guest_Fool_*
Posted 30 January 2006 - 07:04 PM
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I'm giggling. This is so ridiculuous.
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When I look at the blood on my fingers, the laughter dies.
Oh boy, i so know what you're talking about. It doesnt so much die as it gets squashed by a huge hammer into a million pieces, which then get burned to cinders and are finally strewn into the wind never to be seen again... until the giggles return anyway...
Thankfully when i went through it, it didnt involve my posterior but bleeding from the head is no fun either, let me tell you. And feeling an indian doctor pull up your scalp while stitching it... and being happy as all **** that you didnt break your neck... It almost makes you give up drinking for good.
You have my heartfelt sympathies.
