[Abyss]

Morgoth;118574 said:

But they were described as very big, weren't they? Remember that the TT and the BArghast were on the sea together once, meaning they probably shared boats etc.. Basically, the TT could have used - I think - the same kind and size canoes, but there would just be less TT in each

I suppose... i can't really argue the physical logistics in a fantasy setting, but it was a LONG time ago that the T3s were rowing around with the Imass, long enough for their crossbreeds to become a whole other race. It just seems unlikely, tho naturally, not impossible.

So, our latest tally has it...

The Perish (Grey Helms or otherwise);
The Grey Swords;
The Bhargast;
T3s;
The Blue Moranth;
An Edur sub-group;
The 2006 Russian Women's Olympic Rowing team;

I was going to add the Andii hiding in BlueRose, but Ahl's recollection in TB only suggests a few thousand of them.

- Abyss, if pressed, could make an 'Ahl be back' joke here...

[Abyss]

Am i missing something here?

The RG prologue takes place 2 years before MT.
MT takes place chronologically before MoI.
The RG plotline involving Bivatt v Redmask takes place AFTER MoI, HoC AND TB.

So it doesn't seem like it could be the White Face Barghast in the prologue, because that would mean they landed landed 1/2 mil people and wandered around the Awl'dan unseen from two years before the events in MoI.

But by the time we see them in RG, Tool is in charge and Kilava is hiding them (or some of them) in Tellan. And there's a ref to a landing where HTaur died.

So either they landed on Leth, travelled all the way from Leth back to Genabackis for the MoI Capustan/Coral fights, then back again in time to spring Tool's big joke on AnasToc;

or,

1/2 mil of them were already on Leth, and Tool and co joined that bunch much later;

or,

it isn't the WFB's landing craft Bivatt is looking at, which doesn't make sense given she drives the Drene plotline v Redmask in the rest of RG.

My head hurts. Help. Anyone? Anyone?

- Abyss, needs to remind self the timeline is not important, but still...

[caladanbrood]

Sshhhhhhhhhhhhh! He's not making all the dates up as he writes them, honest!

It's pretty clear that the canoes are the Barghast's. And that Erikson messed up. But don't say anything, and it might go away.

[Abyss]

but
but
but...
he didn't even use dates... he used time periods from major events in the series....

For that matter, all he had to do was make the landing investigation take place at like 1 year after the conquest, and it would have made sense...

...

...

- Abyss, now my ears are bleeding.

[caladanbrood]

zippit!

[Kurt Montandon]

caladanbrood;193355 said:

It's pretty clear that the canoes are the Barghast's. And that Erikson messed up. But don't say anything, and it might go away.

Actually, it's not clear - after all, there aren't a half-million White Faces.

And the event-markers seem quite clear - the Atri-Preda discovers the canoes before the fall of the King, and she even makes reference to the Ceda.

No, I think there's ... something more going on. There are more Barghast than just those on Genebackis, and I think a big group of them just showed up to fight the KCCM. Keep in mind the issues we have unresolved in the east of Letheras: The canoe people, the White Faces, the KCCM hiding, Red Mask's Letherii parentage (reread about 637 or 647, it's made fairly obvious what secret the elder was threatening Red Mask with), the alliance of nations that threaten Tehol's empire, the wolf-girl, and the wolves that ate Grey Sword hearts.

We're going to see eastern Letheras again, we have to - and I'm guessing we'll see some answers.

[Malaclypse]

A hundred thousand Barghast answered Humbrall Taur's call (implying that there are more who didn't answer the call) - all warriors from the various clans (MoI, UK Trade, p.334). Consider that the ascension of the Barghast Founding Spirits would unify all the Barghast, certainly all those on Genabackis. Consider also that it wouldn't just be the warriors taking ship, it would be the entire Barghast population, more or less. Half a million is well within the bounds of reason

[drinksinbars]

Spoiler

sure we see hetan and tool in RG so its obvious the canoes were barghast,. they even had the hidden patrts were the swords were kept. also cafal talks of returning to the sea in MOI. Also they talk of prophecy. one thing i was struck by, was how toc came to meet the KCCM, not necesasarily fight them.

people just assume they are evil, yet i think we will find the short tails are going to ally themselves with someone unexpected.

[caladanbrood]

kmmontandon;193430 said:

Actually, it's not clear - after all, there aren't a half-million White Faces.

Depite the canoes being decribed in identical terms to the ones that the Barghast found in MoI?

[Abyss]

Unless of course, much like the Perish were waiting for Tavore and company for two years, a tribe of old school (read: seafaring) Bhargast were ALSO in motion well in advance of the need for them.... and we just haven't seen that particular detail yet...

YES! An explanation i can live with!!!

- Abyss, returns to the faith.

[drinksinbars]

Spoiler

and the fact the white face barghast turn up doesnt make you think that they canoed there?

[Kurt Montandon]

caladanbrood;193525 said:

Depite the canoes being decribed in identical terms to the ones that the Barghast found in MoI?

There's mention made that people known as the Barghast can be found in every land, with similarities of culture. The Awl, for example, are themselves Barghast. So it could be a group from another land - the same region as the Perish, who were also preparing their gate-ritual three years ago, which would be about as long as our mystery canoe people have been in Letheras (if you add in the gap between BH and RG).

I think it's entirely possible that the half-million people who showed up by canoe are Barghast from many different lands, including Genabackis - drawn together by a sort of summoning.

Much like the Imass were drawn together for the Ritual ...

And both the Perish and the Barghast have ties to the Beast Hold, so there could have been a common prophecy - the Perish waited to hook up with the Malazans, while the Barghast went ahead to Letheras.

So ... the White Faces were just latecomers to the Letheras party, joining the Barghast already there. And they came not just in answer to prophecy, but to avenge the Grey Swords, in a convergence of desires. The question remains - what are the half-million Barghast doing on Letheras, since I don't think they're just there to help crush the Empire.

[Imperial Historian]

The new prologue has corrected dates when compared to the one we were initially given, the canoes were found in the last days of King Diskanar, and the bodies were found after the edur conquest.

It's still a stretch... just not quite as big a one, but if we assume that the barghast can mobilise and move there population a few hundred miles very very quickly through a warren, and that Rhulad had ships sent out a reaving before he beat diskanar, it could possibly fit.

Or SE has messed up timelines again, and both events should be moved forward a year.

Oh and the awl aren't barghast are they? they are never referenced as giants... and the letherii have never met the barghast before, so a barghast presence on the continent seems unlikely when everythign suggests they are from the canoes, and the large size of the barghast means the estimate will inevitably be an over estimate.

[Danyah]

OK, said this in another thread...

The last day of King Diskanar (exactly the last one), Mael sends Theradas Buhn to his realm, the big blue. Timelinewise, that body only could have turned up in Genabackis LATER on, for Paran and the BB's to find it while moving to Coral.

Iirc, the Barghast moved along with Broods army to Coral, so they couldn't have left on their prehistoric canoes until after Coral.

So Barghast landed before death Ezgara, while still marching with Brood (at the very best, could be fighting with Trotts, or amongst themselves for that matter).

So my top 3

On 3. The other barghast left with their entire nation for no good reason to Lether. White faces are the only ones to join Brood.

On 2. There's are some new players in the game we haven't heard of yet.

On 1. SE pulled a GoTMism. He admits regularly in interviews he messes up the timeline (he did in that last one, that's what he uses the forum for), and the canoes belong to the White Faces.

Oh and Abyss, I remember you calling "Timeline is not important, timeline is not important!!!"

What happened? Got a new addiction, next to brainz?

[Kurt Montandon]

Imperial Historian;193677 said:

Oh and the awl aren't barghast are they? they are never referenced as giants...

Barghast aren't referenced as giants, either, just typically slightly larger than normal humans.

And I say the Awl are Barghast based on their traditions - death-nights and shouldermen, most importantly. I suspect their bloodlines are more diluted than most, but it would explain why we haven't seen Barghast on Letheras yet, just brief mention from the Ceda. Supposedly, they exist everywhere else, yet have roughly the same customs no matter how separate the populations - this would be due to their common Imass ancestry.

(Note that the Awl live in an area with heavy Imass detritus - the magic-dead grounds left behind by the Ritual, the various weapons and artifacts that can be detected under the earth. I suspect their hatred of the vile "antlered people" with their evil un-binding of their souls from their bodies - as told in that lengthy story from Redmask - come from their ancestors having been Imass who rejected the Ritual, rather than simply not having shown up in time).

Again, I think there are plenty more Barghast in the world, and they've converged, along with the Genebarii Barghast, due to a prophecy, something they had in common with the Perish. Both peoples, Perish and Barghast, would have received warning at about the same time - roughly two years before the events in Bonehunters. After all, both Perish and Barghast have close ties to the wolf gods, and to the Beast Hold (the Perish by virtue of their vows which preceded the reactivation of the Beast Hold, the Barghast by being descendants of the Imass, who were closely tied to the Beast Hold).

Which would also explain why the White Faces were the only Barghast we saw in MoI - the rest were elsewhere. It also explains why Cafal knew that the White Faces would not have the land as their home much longer - there was a need for them to be elsewhere, as soon as they wrapped up business with freeing their gods (and it further explains, retroactively, why the Barghast needed those gods to begin with - all the help they can get).

And for those who doubt the veracity of prophecy, keep in mind that we saw Feather Witch foretell the coming of Togg and Fanderay to the Beast Throne nearly a year before it happened, and Nimander knew that Clip was on his way due to a prophecy, as well. So divination is possible in the Malazan world, and not just as self-fulfilling prophecies like the Apocalypse, but actual predictions of the future.

[Skywalker]

Danyah;193725 said:

OK, said this in another thread...

The last day of King Diskanar (exatly the last one), Mael sends Theradas Buhn to his realm, the big blue. Timelinewise, that body only could have turned up in Genabackis LATER on, for Paran and the BB's to find it while moving to Coral.

On 1. SE pulled a GoTMism. He admits regularly in interviews he messes up the timeline (he did in that last one, that's what he uses the forum for), and the canoes belong to the White Faces.

Nice point... looks like a GoTMism to me!

[Sloppyfresh]

This is my first post... so take it easy on me if i missed a thread... I’m also in Canada... so I have not read RG.

From all the posts I read there are 2 considerations that have not been considered (maybe for good reason)

Here are some of my stipulations:

1) no theory yet has really answered the perfect boats
2) No one mentioned the boats in MT... which is strange. If I was the king, I would find the 1/2 million people within the 2 years, just in case they were invading.
3)Other than sharing the prologue, they before 2 years, and after share no direct link
4) the 2 years after... the dead soldiers have to be related to toc (one eye on the vest)... only logical wolf team I could understand
5) Not possible with timeline to get The Grey Helms? or is it Swords... over to the Awl'dan in time, and they would not land on the far side...(im going with SE not messing with timeline... did put it in the prologue, and im sure hes done his homework with how it all works out)
6) Unless with divining magic, I don’t know how the Barghast could know to come to the Awl'dan or why. (im not sure if more Barghast appear in RG in Lether)

And this is what I think:

1) Everyone has thought that an army arrived, but what if someone built the boats for a mass exodus that has yet to happen? The boats are not hurt even though the water was extremely rough, and they are in drawn up on the beach (possibly they were never in the water). SE also compares it to a toppled forest... 'The north shoreline was a mass of grey-wooded war canoes, for almost as far as she could see to the west and to the east. Drawn up. Abandoned. Filling the shore like a toppled forest.'... maybe he was trying to tell us that they cut down the trees for the boats near the beach. Whomever made the boats could also put the boats in the bay for security cuz, without huge magical powers (like mael with the boat from the CG world)... it would be impossible. As to who made the boats? Maybe the residents of Awl'dan... or someone in Lether (maybe Tehol made some boats that he hides using his many contacts)

2) Someone touched on this issue before, but what if the Imass came in the boats? I think I heard once that Imass have problems with going over a huge body of water cuz there is no dust for them to travel on. (I dont remember which book) They could have Silverfox with them as well, and as I remember she cannot go to dust. She would definetly want an escort. The Imass could use the same types of boats as the Barghast because they descended from the Imass. It doesn’t really explain why the boats made it to shore so well, unless the boats were so light because they were empty when they were near shore. The Imass should also be able to enter another Warren, like the flooded one to help speed travel across the Ocean.

I hope that all makes sense... please be kind when you hack my theories apart.

[Danyah]

kmmontandon;193728 said:

Which would also explain why the White Faces were the only Barghast we saw in MoI - the rest were elsewhere.

The White Face were the only clan to march with the army, as for the rest, there ae a lot more Barghast on Genabackis. And I really need to see a reference on the Awl might be Barghast theory.

As for the Imass, same problem as with the WF. The Imass fought the K'ell Hunters at Coral. So when it's the Silverfox Imass, ... no go.

But!!!! As I said before, the Elder that got strangled by Redmask saw skeletons walking the plains at night (or at least, so he braggs to Toc). Thus, that would fit with my top 2 of an unknown player, because we haven't met those Imass. Who are they? The Kron? The rest of the Imass that follow the CG. Remember, the bonecaster that Fid blew up, and the chief and this bonecaster that wanted to usurp Ushul Pran, admitted to kneeling before a new god...

[BridgeBurner]

I still think the boats and Barghast that came with them departed from the realm where Paran finds the 2 skewered women (the Trygalle woman and the trader from Darujhistan), in tBH.

One of the reasons is that there were weapons taken from the prows, while the White Face Barghast still have to train youths to wield their old swords (because those were so light in weight).
Another is that the WF Barghast still have to find out how to build a boat and manage one.

Timeline issues solved...