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Reading through the forums, it seems that a number of questions pop up and are discussed in multiple threads. These questions stem mainly from the rather mysterious approach Steven Erikson has taken towards magic in his books. This isn’t a bad thing at all, in fact, I applaud his treatment of magic… warrens, shapeshifting, spirit magic… all retain enough of an aura of the unexplained to remain truly “magical”. After all, a fantasy series that fully maps out how magic works, details what the necessary steps and procedures are, and explains every minute aspect of the supernatural isn’t really dealing with magic anymore… magic has devolved into a form of physics.
An example would be Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time series. Don’t get me wrong… I’m a fan of Jordan’s, and unlike many, I have not become disillusioned and bitter about his work. I still enjoy it. But I do feel that he’s gotten just a little bit too clinical about his magic.
At any rate, the questions I see popping up in this forum are indeed valid questions, and they stem from our imperfect understanding of how magic works on Wu.
While I would certainly never claim to have a perfect understanding of the warrens, I’d like to try to voice my own theory of how Erikson’s world works. While I don’t wish to reduce his magic to physics, I do think a detailed discussion of his universe might help alleviate some of the questions that keep popping up, questions like:
When did Krul create the Warrens?
What about the Holds?
How do these "Elder Gods" fit into things? How powerful are they,
especially K'rul?
How about "old" magic... spirit magic, etc?
What's the deal with "aspected" dragons? How are they aspected "towards" a
warren?
Feral dragons?
And of course where does the Azath fit into this?
Disclaimer:
I’ve read the first five books several times each, but I’ve only gone through The Bonehunters once, and I’m writing a lot of this from memory. Feel free to join in the discussion and correct any mistakes I make.
The Birth of the Warrens
It is my opinion that Erikson is basing magic in his books on a tried-and-true staple of the fantasy field – the clash between Order and Chaos. He does it in a unique and very fresh way, but it’s still a very old concept that most of us are quite familiar with.
From Lady Envy’s little vision in MoI, we see that way back in the beginning, at the birth of the Warrens, there were two warrens existing at the beginning: Starvald Demelain and Kurald Galain – the Warren of Dragons, and the Warren of Darkness.
It seems safe to suggest that Starvald Demelain and the dragons that embody and inhabit it are chaos-aspected. In other words, the Warren itself is probably the closest warren to absolute chaos. I have always believed that the dragons… the ‘pure’ dragons… are right on the cusp of chaos… the first sentient, ordered beings who can actually be distinguished from Chaos.
Likewise, it’s fairly clear that Mother Dark and Kurald Galain represented Order… an absolute order that existed before it was disturbed by the coming of Light.
If this is true, then these two diametrically opposed warrens together formed, as Lady Envy described it “a two-chambered heart”. Bound together by Krul, the interaction between the chaos of the dragons and the order of Mother Dark branches out to create all the other warrens, warrens that are basically just flavors of the two prime warrens.
“When did K’rul create the Warrens?”
“How do these "Elder Gods" fit into things? How powerful are they,
especially K'rul?”
It seems pretty clear that the warrens, in some form or another, came into existence right at the beginning of things. Now, the refined things humans use and call “warrens” during the present storyline probably are significantly different from the primordial warrens first born from the mingling of order and chaos. But I don’t see any reason to believe, as some have suggested, that Krul “reshaped” or actually created the warrens 70,000 years ago. It seems more likely to me that he gave birth to the warrens at the dawn of time, and all further evolution and refinement of the warrens has been due to the branching, growth, and co-mingling of the warrens.
Perhaps a more interesting question, in my mind, is whether in fact K’rul created the warrens, or the warrens created him.
The definition of the Elder Gods in BH is that they are elemental forces personified. Anthropomorphic personifications of elements. In other words, Mael did not exist prior to the concept of the Ocean, and then create it in his image. Mael is the personification of the Oceans. It’s a subtle chicken-or-egg question, and I may be full of crap, but it could be argued that K’rul was born of the co-mingling of SD and KG… that the birth of the warrens brought him into being as the elemental force that personified them. Just a thought.
If this is the case, it is possible that K’rul has very little control over the warrens. They define and create him, rather than vice-versa. This could explain why he doesn’t just rework them to seal off and isolate the Crippled God and his poison.
The warrens, and the poison flowing into them affect K’rul much more than he can affect them.
“What about the Holds?”
“How about "old" magic... spirit magic, etc?”
I think the Holds, spirit magic, and the various instances of “warren-less” magic throughout the books are all born of the same source… the knife-edge between order and chaos that is best represented by the warrens.
Holds were simply older branches or veins of magic that have since refined into modern warrens. The other sources of magic are perhaps best explained by analogy. If once considers a network of rivers and streams, say, the great plains drained by the Mississippi river, you can see that the channels, rivers, and streams are all major sources of water, and that the water flowing through them is probably the easiest to navigate, the most purposefully moving, and the most useful water in the area. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t ponds, lakes, drainage ditches and other sources and bodies of water cut off from that network of rivers. If magic is water, and the warrens are a river system, maybe spirit/earth magic is like drinking out of the puddle in your backyard, or tapping into an isolated artesian well.
“What's the deal with "aspected" dragons? How are they aspected "towards" a warren?”
It may have been noted before, but I don’t think that a dragon’s aspect is derived from a warren. Nor do I think that the dragons somehow provide the power or life for a particular warren.
If the dragons are the firstborn children of Chaos, then it is well within reason to suppose that the first dragons might come in primary colors or flavors: ie, a Dragon embodying Fire, another embodying Water.
Suppose that Tiam is the First, and she embodies Chaos itself, the first sentient child of Chaos. She’s pure Chaos-aspected. Her first generation of children are one step further removed from Chaos, and are all basically embodiments of primary elements. Fire, Air, Water, etc.
So, my theory is that at some point, shortly after the initial formation of the warrens, as they were starting to merge and branch out, K’rul enlisted the aid of the primary dragons to enforce a sort of order or flavor on the warrens. Like a seed in a supersaturated solution that forms crystals, or a grain of sand providing the anchor for a pearl, the primary aspected dragons just had to spend some time “refining” the raw warrens, and voila…. Sorrit shapes Serc into the path of sky.
This works, in my opinion, to explain why Sorrit can be slain without destroying Serc. Sorrit isn’t the pathway through which power flows into Serc, nor is he the creator of the warren. He simply shaped and influenced it into what it has become.
Certainly, now that he’s dead, it’s more than possible that it would be easier to corrupt or reshape Serc, which may be the Crippled God’s next tactic.
Feral dragons?
If the first generation of Tiam’s offspring were primary, aspected dragons, then I think it is more than possible that the second or third generations – Tiam’s grandchildren and great-grandchildren, would begin to lose the focused elemental nature of their aspect. If the primary dragons interbreed, their offspring will have mixed blood and attributes. If those dragons interbreed, it will exponentially muddy the aspected nature.
It wouldn’t take many generations for them to completely lose the aspected part of their nature… they’re no longer the embodiment of Fire, as Silannah is, or Sky, like Sorrit for example… they’ve bred down to just being dragons.
If, as they get further and further removed from Tiam and the realm of Chaos from which they were born, they also begin to lose their focus and way, it would not be at all misleading to label them “feral dragons”.
I don’t think the ferals are necessarily a lesser breed, or a more recent brood of Tiam’s, and I definitely don’t believe that they’re simply wyvals. I think they’re younger dragons, removed several generations from Tiam, who have lost their purity and focus.
Feral dragons are the Starvald Demelain equivalent of Rake’s grandchildren. Rake is a friggin terror… a god made flesh. His grandkids are a bunch of pansies who almost get wiped out by a Tiste Edur expeditionary force.
So there you have it, in a somewhat messy form, The Unified Theory of the Warrens.
Before all, there was Kurald Galain and Starvald Demelain… polar opposites. Brought together, their interaction gave birth to innumerable streams and pathways of power, embodied by the warrens, and given voice by K’rul.
The dragons, the children of Chaos, helped to polarize and shape certain of the warrens by sharing or imposing their aspects upon them.
This theory fits neatly, in my mind, into a number of plot questions. First: the Otataral Dragon. If Dragons derived their aspects from the warrens, rather than vice versa, it would follow that there would have to be some warren that aspected the Otataral Dragon, which is anathema to all we know about Otataral. If, on the other hand, the first generation, the primary dragons, are instead chaos made manifest in various flavors (almost like how the Elder Gods are embodiments of elemental forces), then there’s no reason that one of Tiam’s first children would not be an embodiment of that which devours magic… otataral. And you certainly wouldn’t ask THAT dragon to help you order and aspect the warrens.
Another nice effect of this theory is that it interjects a huge dilemma… almost religious in nature, into the lives of the Soletaken Tiste Andii dragons. If the two warrens were the beginning of the universe, and were indeed almost diametrically opposed, then the fact that some of the children of Mother Dark turned to Starvald Demelain after she turned away from them is a HUGE deal. The fact that some of them actually consumed Tiam’s blood and became dragons themselves almost smacks of heresy.
It helps to fill in a lot about their personalities and the Tiste angst.
And it certainly explains Andarist’s query as to whether Rake had renounced his draconic blood, and his disgust when he found out he had not.
And of course, the crucial element… How does this figure in to the Houses of the Azath, you ask?
It doesn’t.
I have no idea how the Azath relates to anything. Sue me. : )
So there ya go. Any reactions? I welcome your thoughts, and will update the theory with any good information or points you care to share.
Questions, comments, smart remarks?
Regarding the Warrens: An attempt at a Malazan Theory of Everything
#2 Guest_KaL_*
Posted 14 September 2006 - 04:49 AM
I'd hazard a guess the Azath appear when Order or Chaos become too one sided. Thus when an Azath dies it's because the counter force in the world has grown great enough to contain it.
I'll use Raest as an example, a house comes into existance to contain him? Thinking about it I'm not too sure, it takes him out of the game so he doesn't die and therefore give too much force to order. Why an Azath hasn't erupted to claim the Crippled God though is something curious, I suspect the Azath emerge during convergances but only a few (convers) have resulted in Azath.
I should also mention Dampiur (Rakes sword spelt wrong) as it contains the gate to chaos or some such that must be contained and I suspect acts like a portable Azath, ironic as Sichilas has been trapped in an Azath for eons.
I'll use Raest as an example, a house comes into existance to contain him? Thinking about it I'm not too sure, it takes him out of the game so he doesn't die and therefore give too much force to order. Why an Azath hasn't erupted to claim the Crippled God though is something curious, I suspect the Azath emerge during convergances but only a few (convers) have resulted in Azath.
I should also mention Dampiur (Rakes sword spelt wrong) as it contains the gate to chaos or some such that must be contained and I suspect acts like a portable Azath, ironic as Sichilas has been trapped in an Azath for eons.
#3
Aptorian 
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Posted 14 September 2006 - 07:03 AM
You've got a lot interesting ideas in there but there's some pretty big leaps in your theories. Mainly you are ignoring a lot of the evidence we have from quotes and statements of the creatures of Wu.
In your review of the warrens you seem to be ignoring the existance of The Holds and before them "roaming powers". Yes, K'rul shaped the warrens, but he merely took what was already there and refined them. The Holds weren't just a form of feral magic like bloodmagic and spiritmagic seems to be, they were existing and being worshipped and used.
That's why there were decks of The Hold and masters like The Errant seems to be. Like the warrens some of the unaligned in the DoD were also represented in The Deck of Holds. For example the Obelisk in the time of the Imass was called Menhir.
The existance of Gods are something we don't yet understand but mostly it would seem that the EG were either birthed into being by MD or materialized out of Chaos to represent "elements". These elements we still don't understand. Other Gods come into being through ascending and then being worshipped. Were K'rul came from is hard to say, but his willingness to return to Chaos might be an indication. But everything points towards K'rul made these warrens and he is not a slave to them. Like he says to Envy in MoI, he is a benevolent creator. He doesn't want to imposse what could be expected to be his complete control of every warren.
I like your analogy of magic and riversystems. The warrens being "the artificial" canals used to harness all the more raw channels and sideways of the Holds.
I can't get a grip on the Dragons and Warrens questions, but I like your idea about them merely shaping them and it wouldn't be that bad for them to die. I do wonder though if the reason to why they shouldn't die is that they besides shaping also protected these warrens. Can a warren disintegrate and revert to it's old shape as a Hold? That would be pretty interesting to see.
In your review of the warrens you seem to be ignoring the existance of The Holds and before them "roaming powers". Yes, K'rul shaped the warrens, but he merely took what was already there and refined them. The Holds weren't just a form of feral magic like bloodmagic and spiritmagic seems to be, they were existing and being worshipped and used.
That's why there were decks of The Hold and masters like The Errant seems to be. Like the warrens some of the unaligned in the DoD were also represented in The Deck of Holds. For example the Obelisk in the time of the Imass was called Menhir.
The existance of Gods are something we don't yet understand but mostly it would seem that the EG were either birthed into being by MD or materialized out of Chaos to represent "elements". These elements we still don't understand. Other Gods come into being through ascending and then being worshipped. Were K'rul came from is hard to say, but his willingness to return to Chaos might be an indication. But everything points towards K'rul made these warrens and he is not a slave to them. Like he says to Envy in MoI, he is a benevolent creator. He doesn't want to imposse what could be expected to be his complete control of every warren.
I like your analogy of magic and riversystems. The warrens being "the artificial" canals used to harness all the more raw channels and sideways of the Holds.
I can't get a grip on the Dragons and Warrens questions, but I like your idea about them merely shaping them and it wouldn't be that bad for them to die. I do wonder though if the reason to why they shouldn't die is that they besides shaping also protected these warrens. Can a warren disintegrate and revert to it's old shape as a Hold? That would be pretty interesting to see.
#4 Guest_KaL_*
Posted 14 September 2006 - 09:14 AM
I thought the Holds and Warrens were different paths to the same things, as the Letharii worship the holds while others utilise the Warrens.
Also there was an awesome description by that Avowed in MT that someone should paste up here.
Also there was an awesome description by that Avowed in MT that someone should paste up here.
#5
Aptorian
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Posted 14 September 2006 - 09:30 AM
I remeber the description as "From wandering, to holds, to warrens" - can't remember where I have this from though. Basically warrens are just the way magic is channeled on Wu know. Then again in the Reapers Gale prologue Gothos is described as using "his warren", this in a time more than 300.000 years in the past, in the time of the EG. So the destinction seems hard.
How the Letheri are still using holds has always peaked my interest. My best estimate is that Lether is simply a kind of Lost Continent, forgotten by time and the Gods alike. Perhaps Gothos Mojo had some effect on these.
Anyway, the Letheri still using Holds would sort of indicate that K'ruls shaping of the Warrens happened after the fall of the First Empire of Man... wouldn't it? that's a peculiar thought.
How the Letheri are still using holds has always peaked my interest. My best estimate is that Lether is simply a kind of Lost Continent, forgotten by time and the Gods alike. Perhaps Gothos Mojo had some effect on these.
Anyway, the Letheri still using Holds would sort of indicate that K'ruls shaping of the Warrens happened after the fall of the First Empire of Man... wouldn't it? that's a peculiar thought.
#6
tjc52
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Posted 14 September 2006 - 10:13 AM
I think the quote is actually by Corlo, to the Seren Pedak, something along the lines of
[using holds] is like riding along in a wagon with square wheels, and complimenting each other on the smoothness of the ride [when compared to using warrens]
On another note, What about the Coming of Light? I think we can assume that Kurald Thyrllan is the Third Warren, after KG and SD, but given the Tiste Andii sense of betrayal by Mother Dark about the creation of light, that suggests that Light was created by Mother Dark somehow. Not K'rul.
[using holds] is like riding along in a wagon with square wheels, and complimenting each other on the smoothness of the ride [when compared to using warrens]
On another note, What about the Coming of Light? I think we can assume that Kurald Thyrllan is the Third Warren, after KG and SD, but given the Tiste Andii sense of betrayal by Mother Dark about the creation of light, that suggests that Light was created by Mother Dark somehow. Not K'rul.
#7
Aptorian
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Posted 14 September 2006 - 10:20 AM
Well there is some confusion as to how much MD created. Did she create everything, The elements, even the other universes.. like where the CG came from, or did a lot of stuff exist before she came to be. Like Wu, Tiam and SD, etc.
#8 Guest_Maknavox_*
Posted 14 September 2006 - 10:38 AM
I gave you rep! good thread.
Tiam is probebly a old dragon from the mesopetomianblablathingy era(props to the guy who told me this). The dragon was the creative force of chaos, named Tiamat... It also got killed by gods/acendants
I somewhat agree with your theory. just some minor other thoughts that do not actually matter.
The eldergods did not actualy exist in the dawn of time. The eres is probebly older, and so are Togg and Fanderay. (reference prologue MoI)
The human Paths were probebly created in the time of the Humans first empire. But they clung to the holds, because they loved what was elder. (reference, heboric in DG)
This is a very cool idea. The elder gods, were maybe created along with the warrens. Maybe the eldergods are the protectors of the different worlds, that can explain why they are outside of the deck of dragons, cept for krull.
I thought this was simple. When the ever annoying bottle uses his warrens, fiddeler asks him how bottle can use so many warrens at the same time. He said something like ´Only quick ben uses more warrens´ then bottle comments that hes using hold magic. For me this gave the idea that using the holds to produce magic you actually use multiple warrens. This way you get less pure, but more powerfull magic.
Like with the houses you draw power from 1 branch of the river, but with the holds you draw power from the main or semi main river.
I agree with you on the ´when you kill a dragon you dont destroy the warren´
But we know that the dragons shared shaping the warrens, there are multiple dragons that created KE, there are also dragons that shaped multiple warrens.
We do not know if a warren is already dragonless, maybe serc is dragonless, though lets not hope so, because Oserc isnt doing anything to protect serc or Kurald Liosan.
Maybe when you kill all the dragons associated with a warren, THEN the warren dies or shatters.
This is not directly related to magic, but a good idea about them
But you miss 1 thing. Aspects are not flavours of chaos, they are flavors of order. Or they are ordered flavors of chaos... lols confusing.
Smart remark number one.
FIRST there were Wanderers.
SECOND there were Holds
THIRD there were Houses
Where are the Wanderers included?
Where did you include the houses?
I myself have a idea. The holds, wanderers and Houses are links to the warrens, worlds, aspects, and powers of the multiverse of Wu. The H,H and W are the binding links between everything.
The name azath is just the name for houses and holds. The azath in MT is first the hold of the azath, and later the hold of death. Though im stuck on why there is a hold of the azath...
Houses, just like dragons and eldergods, are aspected. But they also contain residue aspects and minor aspects(love, hate, dispair, hope) As Coltillion explained to us.
I believe that when you have a house, you also get a path, and humans are able to acces it. Come to think of it. There isnt a path of Ice for humans. And the finnest (translated as house of ice) just came to existance.
Now your thinking... wtf maknavox your babbeling...
Sinn! the little girl in bonehunters she is probebly using ice to protect everybody from the fire. Maybe she is the first human ice mage, now that there is a house of ice.
Lols that was my theory... i love it for people to shoot at the weak spots.
PS: i know i have left out the wanderes, that is because i have no idea bout that.
Maknavox, Tiam the first beeing of chaos, she must have mayor mood swings
Lols i did a abyssy, though not a very good one.
EDIT
To apt
Its from wandering to holds to houses. Holds are NOT the pre version of warrens. They are the pre version of HOUSES.
The letheri still have holds because of Meal. he wanted to preserve the old way for some reason. So he and gothos sealed it all to krulls changes.
corlo cant even open his warren until the edur come. Its like hes blocked from using warrens, but the edur change that.
Quote
The Birth of the Warrens
It is my opinion that Erikson is basing magic in his books on a tried-and-true staple of the fantasy field – the clash between Order and Chaos. He does it in a unique and very fresh way, but it’s still a very old concept that most of us are quite familiar with.
From Lady Envy’s little vision in MoI, we see that way back in the beginning, at the birth of the Warrens, there were two warrens existing at the beginning: Starvald Demelain and Kurald Galain – the Warren of Dragons, and the Warren of Darkness.
It seems safe to suggest that Starvald Demelain and the dragons that embody and inhabit it are chaos-aspected. In other words, the Warren itself is probably the closest warren to absolute chaos. I have always believed that the dragons… the ‘pure’ dragons… are right on the cusp of chaos… the first sentient, ordered beings who can actually be distinguished from Chaos.
Likewise, it’s fairly clear that Mother Dark and Kurald Galain represented Order… an absolute order that existed before it was disturbed by the coming of Light.
If this is true, then these two diametrically opposed warrens together formed, as Lady Envy described it “a two-chambered heart”. Bound together by Krul, the interaction between the chaos of the dragons and the order of Mother Dark branches out to create all the other warrens, warrens that are basically just flavors of the two prime warrens.
It is my opinion that Erikson is basing magic in his books on a tried-and-true staple of the fantasy field – the clash between Order and Chaos. He does it in a unique and very fresh way, but it’s still a very old concept that most of us are quite familiar with.
From Lady Envy’s little vision in MoI, we see that way back in the beginning, at the birth of the Warrens, there were two warrens existing at the beginning: Starvald Demelain and Kurald Galain – the Warren of Dragons, and the Warren of Darkness.
It seems safe to suggest that Starvald Demelain and the dragons that embody and inhabit it are chaos-aspected. In other words, the Warren itself is probably the closest warren to absolute chaos. I have always believed that the dragons… the ‘pure’ dragons… are right on the cusp of chaos… the first sentient, ordered beings who can actually be distinguished from Chaos.
Likewise, it’s fairly clear that Mother Dark and Kurald Galain represented Order… an absolute order that existed before it was disturbed by the coming of Light.
If this is true, then these two diametrically opposed warrens together formed, as Lady Envy described it “a two-chambered heart”. Bound together by Krul, the interaction between the chaos of the dragons and the order of Mother Dark branches out to create all the other warrens, warrens that are basically just flavors of the two prime warrens.
Tiam is probebly a old dragon from the mesopetomianblablathingy era(props to the guy who told me this). The dragon was the creative force of chaos, named Tiamat... It also got killed by gods/acendants
I somewhat agree with your theory. just some minor other thoughts that do not actually matter.
Quote
“When did K’rul create the Warrens?”
“How do these "Elder Gods" fit into things? How powerful are they,
especially K'rul?”
It seems pretty clear that the warrens, in some form or another, came into existence right at the beginning of things. Now, the refined things humans use and call “warrens” during the present storyline probably are significantly different from the primordial warrens first born from the mingling of order and chaos. But I don’t see any reason to believe, as some have suggested, that Krul “reshaped” or actually created the warrens 70,000 years ago. It seems more likely to me that he gave birth to the warrens at the dawn of time, and all further evolution and refinement of the warrens has been due to the branching, growth, and co-mingling of the warrens.
“How do these "Elder Gods" fit into things? How powerful are they,
especially K'rul?”
It seems pretty clear that the warrens, in some form or another, came into existence right at the beginning of things. Now, the refined things humans use and call “warrens” during the present storyline probably are significantly different from the primordial warrens first born from the mingling of order and chaos. But I don’t see any reason to believe, as some have suggested, that Krul “reshaped” or actually created the warrens 70,000 years ago. It seems more likely to me that he gave birth to the warrens at the dawn of time, and all further evolution and refinement of the warrens has been due to the branching, growth, and co-mingling of the warrens.
The eldergods did not actualy exist in the dawn of time. The eres is probebly older, and so are Togg and Fanderay. (reference prologue MoI)
The human Paths were probebly created in the time of the Humans first empire. But they clung to the holds, because they loved what was elder. (reference, heboric in DG)
Quote
Perhaps a more interesting question, in my mind, is whether in fact K’rul created the warrens, or the warrens created him.
The definition of the Elder Gods in BH is that they are elemental forces personified. Anthropomorphic personifications of elements. In other words, Mael did not exist prior to the concept of the Ocean, and then create it in his image. Mael is the personification of the Oceans. It’s a subtle chicken-or-egg question, and I may be full of crap, but it could be argued that K’rul was born of the co-mingling of SD and KG… that the birth of the warrens brought him into being as the elemental force that personified them. Just a thought.
If this is the case, it is possible that K’rul has very little control over the warrens. They define and create him, rather than vice-versa. This could explain why he doesn’t just rework them to seal off and isolate the Crippled God and his poison.
The warrens, and the poison flowing into them affect K’rul much more than he can affect them.
The definition of the Elder Gods in BH is that they are elemental forces personified. Anthropomorphic personifications of elements. In other words, Mael did not exist prior to the concept of the Ocean, and then create it in his image. Mael is the personification of the Oceans. It’s a subtle chicken-or-egg question, and I may be full of crap, but it could be argued that K’rul was born of the co-mingling of SD and KG… that the birth of the warrens brought him into being as the elemental force that personified them. Just a thought.
If this is the case, it is possible that K’rul has very little control over the warrens. They define and create him, rather than vice-versa. This could explain why he doesn’t just rework them to seal off and isolate the Crippled God and his poison.
The warrens, and the poison flowing into them affect K’rul much more than he can affect them.
This is a very cool idea. The elder gods, were maybe created along with the warrens. Maybe the eldergods are the protectors of the different worlds, that can explain why they are outside of the deck of dragons, cept for krull.
Quote
“What about the Holds?”
“How about "old" magic... spirit magic, etc?”
I think the Holds, spirit magic, and the various instances of “warren-less” magic throughout the books are all born of the same source… the knife-edge between order and chaos that is best represented by the warrens.
Holds were simply older branches or veins of magic that have since refined into modern warrens. The other sources of magic are perhaps best explained by analogy. If once considers a network of rivers and streams, say, the great plains drained by the Mississippi river, you can see that the channels, rivers, and streams are all major sources of water, and that the water flowing through them is probably the easiest to navigate, the most purposefully moving, and the most useful water in the area. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t ponds, lakes, drainage ditches and other sources and bodies of water cut off from that network of rivers. If magic is water, and the warrens are a river system, maybe spirit/earth magic is like drinking out of the puddle in your backyard, or tapping into an isolated artesian well.
“How about "old" magic... spirit magic, etc?”
I think the Holds, spirit magic, and the various instances of “warren-less” magic throughout the books are all born of the same source… the knife-edge between order and chaos that is best represented by the warrens.
Holds were simply older branches or veins of magic that have since refined into modern warrens. The other sources of magic are perhaps best explained by analogy. If once considers a network of rivers and streams, say, the great plains drained by the Mississippi river, you can see that the channels, rivers, and streams are all major sources of water, and that the water flowing through them is probably the easiest to navigate, the most purposefully moving, and the most useful water in the area. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t ponds, lakes, drainage ditches and other sources and bodies of water cut off from that network of rivers. If magic is water, and the warrens are a river system, maybe spirit/earth magic is like drinking out of the puddle in your backyard, or tapping into an isolated artesian well.
I thought this was simple. When the ever annoying bottle uses his warrens, fiddeler asks him how bottle can use so many warrens at the same time. He said something like ´Only quick ben uses more warrens´ then bottle comments that hes using hold magic. For me this gave the idea that using the holds to produce magic you actually use multiple warrens. This way you get less pure, but more powerfull magic.
Like with the houses you draw power from 1 branch of the river, but with the holds you draw power from the main or semi main river.
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“What's the deal with "aspected" dragons? How are they aspected "towards" a warren?”
It may have been noted before, but I don’t think that a dragon’s aspect is derived from a warren. Nor do I think that the dragons somehow provide the power or life for a particular warren.
If the dragons are the firstborn children of Chaos, then it is well within reason to suppose that the first dragons might come in primary colors or flavors: ie, a Dragon embodying Fire, another embodying Water.
Suppose that Tiam is the First, and she embodies Chaos itself, the first sentient child of Chaos. She’s pure Chaos-aspected. Her first generation of children are one step further removed from Chaos, and are all basically embodiments of primary elements. Fire, Air, Water, etc.
So, my theory is that at some point, shortly after the initial formation of the warrens, as they were starting to merge and branch out, K’rul enlisted the aid of the primary dragons to enforce a sort of order or flavor on the warrens. Like a seed in a supersaturated solution that forms crystals, or a grain of sand providing the anchor for a pearl, the primary aspected dragons just had to spend some time “refining” the raw warrens, and voila…. Sorrit shapes Serc into the path of sky.
This works, in my opinion, to explain why Sorrit can be slain without destroying Serc. Sorrit isn’t the pathway through which power flows into Serc, nor is he the creator of the warren. He simply shaped and influenced it into what it has become.
Certainly, now that he’s dead, it’s more than possible that it would be easier to corrupt or reshape Serc, which may be the Crippled God’s next tactic.
It may have been noted before, but I don’t think that a dragon’s aspect is derived from a warren. Nor do I think that the dragons somehow provide the power or life for a particular warren.
If the dragons are the firstborn children of Chaos, then it is well within reason to suppose that the first dragons might come in primary colors or flavors: ie, a Dragon embodying Fire, another embodying Water.
Suppose that Tiam is the First, and she embodies Chaos itself, the first sentient child of Chaos. She’s pure Chaos-aspected. Her first generation of children are one step further removed from Chaos, and are all basically embodiments of primary elements. Fire, Air, Water, etc.
So, my theory is that at some point, shortly after the initial formation of the warrens, as they were starting to merge and branch out, K’rul enlisted the aid of the primary dragons to enforce a sort of order or flavor on the warrens. Like a seed in a supersaturated solution that forms crystals, or a grain of sand providing the anchor for a pearl, the primary aspected dragons just had to spend some time “refining” the raw warrens, and voila…. Sorrit shapes Serc into the path of sky.
This works, in my opinion, to explain why Sorrit can be slain without destroying Serc. Sorrit isn’t the pathway through which power flows into Serc, nor is he the creator of the warren. He simply shaped and influenced it into what it has become.
Certainly, now that he’s dead, it’s more than possible that it would be easier to corrupt or reshape Serc, which may be the Crippled God’s next tactic.
I agree with you on the ´when you kill a dragon you dont destroy the warren´
But we know that the dragons shared shaping the warrens, there are multiple dragons that created KE, there are also dragons that shaped multiple warrens.
We do not know if a warren is already dragonless, maybe serc is dragonless, though lets not hope so, because Oserc isnt doing anything to protect serc or Kurald Liosan.
Maybe when you kill all the dragons associated with a warren, THEN the warren dies or shatters.
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Feral dragons?
This is not directly related to magic, but a good idea about them
But you miss 1 thing. Aspects are not flavours of chaos, they are flavors of order. Or they are ordered flavors of chaos... lols confusing.
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And of course, the crucial element… How does this figure in to the Houses of the Azath, you ask?
It doesn’t.
I have no idea how the Azath relates to anything. Sue me. : )
So there ya go. Any reactions? I welcome your thoughts, and will update the theory with any good information or points you care to share.
Questions, comments, smart remarks?
It doesn’t.
I have no idea how the Azath relates to anything. Sue me. : )
So there ya go. Any reactions? I welcome your thoughts, and will update the theory with any good information or points you care to share.
Questions, comments, smart remarks?
Smart remark number one.
FIRST there were Wanderers.
SECOND there were Holds
THIRD there were Houses
Where are the Wanderers included?
Where did you include the houses?
I myself have a idea. The holds, wanderers and Houses are links to the warrens, worlds, aspects, and powers of the multiverse of Wu. The H,H and W are the binding links between everything.
The name azath is just the name for houses and holds. The azath in MT is first the hold of the azath, and later the hold of death. Though im stuck on why there is a hold of the azath...
Houses, just like dragons and eldergods, are aspected. But they also contain residue aspects and minor aspects(love, hate, dispair, hope) As Coltillion explained to us.
I believe that when you have a house, you also get a path, and humans are able to acces it. Come to think of it. There isnt a path of Ice for humans. And the finnest (translated as house of ice) just came to existance.
Now your thinking... wtf maknavox your babbeling...
Sinn! the little girl in bonehunters she is probebly using ice to protect everybody from the fire. Maybe she is the first human ice mage, now that there is a house of ice.
Lols that was my theory... i love it for people to shoot at the weak spots.
PS: i know i have left out the wanderes, that is because i have no idea bout that.
Maknavox, Tiam the first beeing of chaos, she must have mayor mood swings
Lols i did a abyssy, though not a very good one.
EDIT
To apt
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I remeber the description as "From wandering, to holds, to warrens" - can't remember where I have this from though. Basically warrens are just the way magic is channeled on Wu know. Then again in the Reapers Gale prologue Gothos is described as using "his warren", this in a time more than 300.000 years in the past, in the time of the EG. So the destinction seems hard.
How the Letheri are still using holds has always peaked my interest. My best estimate is that Lether is simply a kind of Lost Continent, forgotten by time and the Gods alike. Perhaps Gothos Mojo had some effect on these.
Anyway, the Letheri still using Holds would sort of indicate that K'ruls shaping of the Warrens happened after the fall of the First Empire of Man... wouldn't it? that's a peculiar thought.
How the Letheri are still using holds has always peaked my interest. My best estimate is that Lether is simply a kind of Lost Continent, forgotten by time and the Gods alike. Perhaps Gothos Mojo had some effect on these.
Anyway, the Letheri still using Holds would sort of indicate that K'ruls shaping of the Warrens happened after the fall of the First Empire of Man... wouldn't it? that's a peculiar thought.
Its from wandering to holds to houses. Holds are NOT the pre version of warrens. They are the pre version of HOUSES.
The letheri still have holds because of Meal. he wanted to preserve the old way for some reason. So he and gothos sealed it all to krulls changes.
corlo cant even open his warren until the edur come. Its like hes blocked from using warrens, but the edur change that.
#9
Dragnipurake
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Posted 14 September 2006 - 04:22 PM
Regarding Krul shaping the warrens after the first empire, Nifadas (first eunuch) to Brys in MT:
"....Lether was born of colonists who came here from the First Empire. That First Empire was then destroyed, the paradise razed to lifeless desert. Yet it was the First Empire in which the holds were first discovered. True, the Empty Hold proved a later manifestation....."
suggesting that they may already be using the warrens, when they suddenly discovered the more primal and powerfull holds, and shifted to using them. this would imply the warrens were there before the first empire. of course, this argument would have much more weight if it was the ceda who stated the above, though nifadas seemed to be a reliable character.
"....Lether was born of colonists who came here from the First Empire. That First Empire was then destroyed, the paradise razed to lifeless desert. Yet it was the First Empire in which the holds were first discovered. True, the Empty Hold proved a later manifestation....."
suggesting that they may already be using the warrens, when they suddenly discovered the more primal and powerfull holds, and shifted to using them. this would imply the warrens were there before the first empire. of course, this argument would have much more weight if it was the ceda who stated the above, though nifadas seemed to be a reliable character.
#10
Morgoth
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Posted 14 September 2006 - 04:36 PM
Dragnipurake;115813 said:
Regarding Krul shaping the warrens after the first empire, Nifadas (first eunuch) to Brys in MT:
"....Lether was born of colonists who came here from the First Empire. That First Empire was then destroyed, the paradise razed to lifeless desert. Yet it was the First Empire in which the holds were first discovered. True, the Empty Hold proved a later manifestation....."
suggesting that they may already be using the warrens, when they suddenly discovered the more primal and powerfull holds, and shifted to using them. this would imply the warrens were there before the first empire. of course, this argument would have much more weight if it was the ceda who stated the above, though nifadas seemed to be a reliable character.
"....Lether was born of colonists who came here from the First Empire. That First Empire was then destroyed, the paradise razed to lifeless desert. Yet it was the First Empire in which the holds were first discovered. True, the Empty Hold proved a later manifestation....."
suggesting that they may already be using the warrens, when they suddenly discovered the more primal and powerfull holds, and shifted to using them. this would imply the warrens were there before the first empire. of course, this argument would have much more weight if it was the ceda who stated the above, though nifadas seemed to be a reliable character.
Wouldnt it rather imply that they used wanderings, which at this point with the mergence of more permanent settlements etc, they evolved into the more static holds?
Take good care to keep relations civil
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#11
Abyss
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Posted 14 September 2006 - 05:06 PM
It's an interesting theory, and while i don't necessarily agree with all of it, I think that there are a few good points.
Just mentally ambling, i think certain key points are the concepts of 'time', 'consciousness', and 'gods'. Did chaos and order coexist, or did order evolve because of the necessity for a counter to chao. Does Mommy D embody order, or does Kurald Galain, and did she create the elder warren or the other way around? How did 'chaos' lead to SD, and did a bunch of sentient winged lizards just show up one day and call themselves 'Eleint'? Did elder gods exist as elemental forces given form by early sentients, or did elemental forces create sentients who them embodied them as elder gods? Do the Elder gods exist because a few early mouth-breathing amphibians had a bit too much wacky-weed one night? Maybe the Eres were on the scene before ANY gods and even Mommy D only exists because a few freaked out neanderthal/Eres decided that the big old scary night sky reminds them of their mothers....
With SE, EVERYTHING is subjective,and even those characters who seem to know what they are talking about could be wrong.
- Abyss, or am i?
Just mentally ambling, i think certain key points are the concepts of 'time', 'consciousness', and 'gods'. Did chaos and order coexist, or did order evolve because of the necessity for a counter to chao. Does Mommy D embody order, or does Kurald Galain, and did she create the elder warren or the other way around? How did 'chaos' lead to SD, and did a bunch of sentient winged lizards just show up one day and call themselves 'Eleint'? Did elder gods exist as elemental forces given form by early sentients, or did elemental forces create sentients who them embodied them as elder gods? Do the Elder gods exist because a few early mouth-breathing amphibians had a bit too much wacky-weed one night? Maybe the Eres were on the scene before ANY gods and even Mommy D only exists because a few freaked out neanderthal/Eres decided that the big old scary night sky reminds them of their mothers....
With SE, EVERYTHING is subjective,and even those characters who seem to know what they are talking about could be wrong.
- Abyss, or am i?
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#13 Guest_Shapefinder_*
Posted 15 September 2006 - 12:12 AM
Pretty interesting. But some points of contention:
1. SD is not the same as Chaos. It may be close to Chaos but it... well, isn't Chaos. At some point Draconus (I think) talks about the cyclical nature of the Chaos-Darkness relationship and that those two sources have been warring since the beginning. SD however, not so much.
2. Edgewalker (again, I think) maintains that EGs and the powers they represent existed in the beginning but that they were essentially formless currents hidden by Darkness. My take is that the powers that gates, Holds, Houses and warrens draw on have always existed.
My take is that every system of magic in Wu is an attempt to draw on the basic forces that govern the universe. Even the Elder Gods themselves are attempts to give form and structure to these forces. To my mind the Elder Gods are like walking Holds. There are different ways of drawing on these forces, so that the Imass and the Liosan and humans can form different paths to the same source, with each path determined by the perspective of the ones shaping it.
Expanding things, in the same way that warrens and gates and earth/blood magic give metaphysical structure to elemental forces Houses and Holds are attempts to give physical structure to these powers. These are ontological forms that give definition to the forces they draw upon. The transition from Holds to Houses describes a more refined or perhaps rigorous defining of the element. So Hood's warren can be both a physical place and a method of drawing power to manipulate the world all formed by the same element. And the House of Death is an ontological fixture that allows greater manipulation of the element in question by essentially fixing the relationships of the element to reality. Perhaps the reason that Holds are both more chaotic and powerful than warrens/Houses is that with Holds there is no seperation between the path and the place.
When K'rul shaped the warrens (in the path sense) he needed the dragons to give a physical shape to the forces the warrens access. In this sense dragons and Elder Gods are the true precursers to Houses - they create a conceptual focal point for the elemental forces within Wu reality. They are the first imposition of an order on chaos.
1. SD is not the same as Chaos. It may be close to Chaos but it... well, isn't Chaos. At some point Draconus (I think) talks about the cyclical nature of the Chaos-Darkness relationship and that those two sources have been warring since the beginning. SD however, not so much.
2. Edgewalker (again, I think) maintains that EGs and the powers they represent existed in the beginning but that they were essentially formless currents hidden by Darkness. My take is that the powers that gates, Holds, Houses and warrens draw on have always existed.
My take is that every system of magic in Wu is an attempt to draw on the basic forces that govern the universe. Even the Elder Gods themselves are attempts to give form and structure to these forces. To my mind the Elder Gods are like walking Holds. There are different ways of drawing on these forces, so that the Imass and the Liosan and humans can form different paths to the same source, with each path determined by the perspective of the ones shaping it.
Expanding things, in the same way that warrens and gates and earth/blood magic give metaphysical structure to elemental forces Houses and Holds are attempts to give physical structure to these powers. These are ontological forms that give definition to the forces they draw upon. The transition from Holds to Houses describes a more refined or perhaps rigorous defining of the element. So Hood's warren can be both a physical place and a method of drawing power to manipulate the world all formed by the same element. And the House of Death is an ontological fixture that allows greater manipulation of the element in question by essentially fixing the relationships of the element to reality. Perhaps the reason that Holds are both more chaotic and powerful than warrens/Houses is that with Holds there is no seperation between the path and the place.
When K'rul shaped the warrens (in the path sense) he needed the dragons to give a physical shape to the forces the warrens access. In this sense dragons and Elder Gods are the true precursers to Houses - they create a conceptual focal point for the elemental forces within Wu reality. They are the first imposition of an order on chaos.
#14
Dark Mac
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Posted 15 September 2006 - 12:35 AM
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Reading through the forums, it seems that a number of questions pop up and are discussed in multiple threads. These questions stem mainly from the rather mysterious approach Steven Erikson has taken towards magic in his books. This isn?t a bad thing at all, in fact, I applaud his treatment of magic? warrens, shapeshifting, spirit magic? all retain enough of an aura of the unexplained to remain truly ?magical?. After all, a fantasy series that fully maps out how magic works, details what the necessary steps and procedures are, and explains every minute aspect of the supernatural isn?t really dealing with magic anymore? magic has devolved into a form of physics.
An example would be Robert Jordan?s Wheel of Time series. Don?t get me wrong? I?m a fan of Jordan?s, and unlike many, I have not become disillusioned and bitter about his work. I still enjoy it. But I do feel that he?s gotten just a little bit too clinical about his magic.
An example would be Robert Jordan?s Wheel of Time series. Don?t get me wrong? I?m a fan of Jordan?s, and unlike many, I have not become disillusioned and bitter about his work. I still enjoy it. But I do feel that he?s gotten just a little bit too clinical about his magic.
Heh, that's actually my favorite thing about WoT, that its magic system actually makes sense. Internal consistency is something I love.
Perhaps you wouldn't be surprised to learn that Jordan was trained as a physicist.
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It seems safe to suggest that Starvald Demelain and the dragons that embody and inhabit it are chaos-aspected. In other words, the Warren itself is probably the closest warren to absolute chaos. I have always believed that the dragons? the ?pure? dragons? are right on the cusp of chaos? the first sentient, ordered beings who can actually be distinguished from Chaos.
K'rul mentions in GotM that he came from Chaos. Also, as Chaos isn't really a "warren", so there's no reason for it not to coexist with the other two from the beginning.
Dragnipurake;115813 said:
Regarding Krul shaping the warrens after the first empire, Nifadas (first eunuch) to Brys in MT:
"....Lether was born of colonists who came here from the First Empire. That First Empire was then destroyed, the paradise razed to lifeless desert. Yet it was the First Empire in which the holds were first discovered. True, the Empty Hold proved a later manifestation....."
suggesting that they may already be using the warrens, when they suddenly discovered the more primal and powerfull holds, and shifted to using them. this would imply the warrens were there before the first empire. of course, this argument would have much more weight if it was the ceda who stated the above, though nifadas seemed to be a reliable character.
"....Lether was born of colonists who came here from the First Empire. That First Empire was then destroyed, the paradise razed to lifeless desert. Yet it was the First Empire in which the holds were first discovered. True, the Empty Hold proved a later manifestation....."
suggesting that they may already be using the warrens, when they suddenly discovered the more primal and powerfull holds, and shifted to using them. this would imply the warrens were there before the first empire. of course, this argument would have much more weight if it was the ceda who stated the above, though nifadas seemed to be a reliable character.
Heh, I always thought the "warrens were only created 70000 years ago" theory was off; it's nice to have some evidence against it.
#15
Coldnight
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Posted 17 September 2006 - 12:57 PM
For me the theories of Stonesnake would be almost perfect if the corrections of Shape finder were added.
Lots of people in this thread seem to misunderstand the word 'warren', and confuse it with 'House'. Wandering, Holds and Houses - these are all different words to name (and use) a warren. And 'warren' is the most primary word to name... ekhem... a warren because people lived in warrens even before they started wandering.
Lots of people in this thread seem to misunderstand the word 'warren', and confuse it with 'House'. Wandering, Holds and Houses - these are all different words to name (and use) a warren. And 'warren' is the most primary word to name... ekhem... a warren because people lived in warrens even before they started wandering.
#16
Marcus
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Posted 18 September 2006 - 07:35 PM
Nice post!
Good point on heresy.
I just wish to add that in the RG prologue Gothos pov implies that MD did not create the universe.
"He had once believed that all of existence was under the benign control of a caring omnipotence, after all. And crickets exist to sing us to sleep, too. There was no telling what other foolishness might have crept into his young, na?ve brain all those millennia ago."
Now, Gothos isn?t all-knowing but he seems to be the foremost analyst of the world and one of the best sources. According to him he has seen no sign of a creator, benign or not. If MD or any other entity we know about were the creator of the universe wouldn?t Gothos be able to deduce it? The creation myth that the Tiste races like to talk about might be twisted out of worship for MD, from their point of view it must seem to be true. Is there any quote of an Elder God mentioning MD being the creator of anything?
As for the Azath, they make an obvious sign of a ?benign control?, that someone ?up there? doesn?t want things to get out of hand in the world. So I?m pretty sure Gothos must have discovered their nature and it hasn?t stopped him from ruling out that there is such an entity.
Of course I?m assuming that Gothos is supremely knowledgeable, base his conclusions on facts and wouldn?t reject something out of hand?. Maybe he?s not, maybe his folly was trying to reach complete understanding of the universe, the warrens and the Azath and finally realised it was beyond him?.
/Marcus
Quote
Another nice effect of this theory is that it interjects a huge dilemma? almost religious in nature, into the lives of the Soletaken Tiste Andii dragons. If the two warrens were the beginning of the universe, and were indeed almost diametrically opposed, then the fact that some of the children of Mother Dark turned to Starvald Demelain after she turned away from them is a HUGE deal. The fact that some of them actually consumed Tiam?s blood and became dragons themselves almost smacks of heresy.
It helps to fill in a lot about their personalities and the Tiste angst.
And it certainly explains Andarist?s query as to whether Rake had renounced his draconic blood, and his disgust when he found out he had not.
And of course, the crucial element? How does this figure in to the Houses of the Azath, you ask?
It doesn?t.
I have no idea how the Azath relates to anything. Sue me. : )
It helps to fill in a lot about their personalities and the Tiste angst.
And it certainly explains Andarist?s query as to whether Rake had renounced his draconic blood, and his disgust when he found out he had not.
And of course, the crucial element? How does this figure in to the Houses of the Azath, you ask?
It doesn?t.
I have no idea how the Azath relates to anything. Sue me. : )
Good point on heresy.
I just wish to add that in the RG prologue Gothos pov implies that MD did not create the universe.
"He had once believed that all of existence was under the benign control of a caring omnipotence, after all. And crickets exist to sing us to sleep, too. There was no telling what other foolishness might have crept into his young, na?ve brain all those millennia ago."
Now, Gothos isn?t all-knowing but he seems to be the foremost analyst of the world and one of the best sources. According to him he has seen no sign of a creator, benign or not. If MD or any other entity we know about were the creator of the universe wouldn?t Gothos be able to deduce it? The creation myth that the Tiste races like to talk about might be twisted out of worship for MD, from their point of view it must seem to be true. Is there any quote of an Elder God mentioning MD being the creator of anything?
As for the Azath, they make an obvious sign of a ?benign control?, that someone ?up there? doesn?t want things to get out of hand in the world. So I?m pretty sure Gothos must have discovered their nature and it hasn?t stopped him from ruling out that there is such an entity.
Of course I?m assuming that Gothos is supremely knowledgeable, base his conclusions on facts and wouldn?t reject something out of hand?. Maybe he?s not, maybe his folly was trying to reach complete understanding of the universe, the warrens and the Azath and finally realised it was beyond him?.
/Marcus
#17
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Posted 18 September 2006 - 07:50 PM
Marcus;117211 said:
Nice post!
Is there any quote of an Elder God mentioning MD being the creator of anything?
/Marcus
Is there any quote of an Elder God mentioning MD being the creator of anything?
/Marcus
I dunno that it's implied that she created anything except being the mother of races, in particular the Tiste races?
#18
Aptorian
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Posted 18 September 2006 - 07:56 PM
Marcus;117211 said:
Nice post!
Good point on heresy.
I just wish to add that in the RG prologue Gothos pov implies that MD did not create the universe.
"He had once believed that all of existence was under the benign control of a caring omnipotence, after all. And crickets exist to sing us to sleep, too. There was no telling what other foolishness might have crept into his young, na?ve brain all those millennia ago."
Now, Gothos isn?t all-knowing but he seems to be the foremost analyst of the world and one of the best sources. According to him he has seen no sign of a creator, benign or not. If MD or any other entity we know about were the creator of the universe wouldn?t Gothos be able to deduce it? The creation myth that the Tiste races like to talk about might be twisted out of worship for MD, from their point of view it must seem to be true. Is there any quote of an Elder God mentioning MD being the creator of anything?
As for the Azath, they make an obvious sign of a ?benign control?, that someone ?up there? doesn?t want things to get out of hand in the world. So I?m pretty sure Gothos must have discovered their nature and it hasn?t stopped him from ruling out that there is such an entity.
Of course I?m assuming that Gothos is supremely knowledgeable, base his conclusions on facts and wouldn?t reject something out of hand?. Maybe he?s not, maybe his folly was trying to reach complete understanding of the universe, the warrens and the Azath and finally realised it was beyond him?.
/Marcus
Good point on heresy.
I just wish to add that in the RG prologue Gothos pov implies that MD did not create the universe.
"He had once believed that all of existence was under the benign control of a caring omnipotence, after all. And crickets exist to sing us to sleep, too. There was no telling what other foolishness might have crept into his young, na?ve brain all those millennia ago."
Now, Gothos isn?t all-knowing but he seems to be the foremost analyst of the world and one of the best sources. According to him he has seen no sign of a creator, benign or not. If MD or any other entity we know about were the creator of the universe wouldn?t Gothos be able to deduce it? The creation myth that the Tiste races like to talk about might be twisted out of worship for MD, from their point of view it must seem to be true. Is there any quote of an Elder God mentioning MD being the creator of anything?
As for the Azath, they make an obvious sign of a ?benign control?, that someone ?up there? doesn?t want things to get out of hand in the world. So I?m pretty sure Gothos must have discovered their nature and it hasn?t stopped him from ruling out that there is such an entity.
Of course I?m assuming that Gothos is supremely knowledgeable, base his conclusions on facts and wouldn?t reject something out of hand?. Maybe he?s not, maybe his folly was trying to reach complete understanding of the universe, the warrens and the Azath and finally realised it was beyond him?.
/Marcus
I concur.
#19
Illuyankas
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Posted 18 September 2006 - 08:52 PM
He says 'benign control', but it doesn't necessarily mean the creator has any control over her creation. It could be she does, but doesn't care anymore, for example.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
#20
Tiger_sword
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Posted 19 September 2006 - 09:57 AM
Gothos FOLLY - i think its implied in the title that he was never going to achieve complete knowledge of the warrens or the creation of Wu. At the time of writing it
I do believe that by understanding the creation of magic (be it order / chaos war or any other route) would lead to a much more complete picture of the evolution of magic through its various forms.
The Prologue of RG was before Gothos had entered the Azath. Prehaps upon exploring the azath he has discovered the truth. He seam reluctant to leave let alone tell anyone what he learned in the azath. Also if we remember the emperor and dancer said they needed to become immortal to figure out the mysteries of the azath, well Gothos virtually is and he has been in ther a LONG time.
I do believe that by understanding the creation of magic (be it order / chaos war or any other route) would lead to a much more complete picture of the evolution of magic through its various forms.
The Prologue of RG was before Gothos had entered the Azath. Prehaps upon exploring the azath he has discovered the truth. He seam reluctant to leave let alone tell anyone what he learned in the azath. Also if we remember the emperor and dancer said they needed to become immortal to figure out the mysteries of the azath, well Gothos virtually is and he has been in ther a LONG time.
