Malazan Empire: Regarding the Warrens: An attempt at a Malazan Theory of Everything - Malazan Empire

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Regarding the Warrens: An attempt at a Malazan Theory of Everything

#41 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 08:01 PM

Who What Were;128774 said:

Well holds are in krul arnt they as they are just less refined warens and must be part of krul as he has darkness and dragon as his heart. Also is his nature the god of warrens/ sorcery so holds must have been part of him as he prob came about when the warrens when from migration to holds that was proberly his doing.

I believe it says in one book that the elder gods are as old or older then darkness as darkness's nature is to rule only it self so the elder gods were involved from the start prob the same time as darkness came from chaos.


No, Holds was "The System" that existed before the Warrens. This was were Telann, Omotose Phellack, Kurald Galain, etc was represented.

I could actually imagine that all the Elder Gods maybe with the help of the Azath or perhaps primarily through the Azath, created the Holds. So that the forces of the elements no longer wandered.

We hear in MoI a little about how the Imass knew and used the Holds. For example back then Obelisk (Burn) was represented in the Holds as Menhir.
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#42 User is offline   The Rope 

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 08:03 AM

K'rul is associated with Obelisk... i thought that was mentioned somewhere... more specifically his aspect is obelisk. Obelisk is Burn, Burn is the World... my brain hurts...
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#43 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 03:27 PM

It shifts. 'Associated' is probably a fairer term than saying anyone is specifically an unaligned card. Iirc, at some point in DG, Icarium is associated with Obelisk on 7C.

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 11:32 PM

first there was wandering. then there was holds then there were !houses!

Not

First there was wandering. then there was holds then there were warrens.

Warrens arnt interchangeable or a different system for the same thing as holds. Holds are probebly a different way of "channeling"/using/accessing warrens, and holds are a way of structuring the pantheon, just like the houses. It puts powers in their respected places.
Like in the holds rake is the night of dragons and in the houses he is the darkness knight.
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#45 User is offline   Silander 

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 12:05 AM

Hmmm well if the holds and warrens are manifestations/repersentations of elemental forces then that makes sense. All aspects of nature.
Now the Azath seem to arise to restore balance, balance is seen not evenly but consistently over time in nature. Perhaps its a case that soemthing that enforces balance on nature (on the holds and warrens in this case) is then bconsidered a natural force itself? So perhaps thats why there is a Hold for it? Its a fledgling theory anyways.
As for the remark on Ice and Gothos' ritual. Ice preserves, adn in this case I fear Gothos didn't realise the full extent of his own power and the repercussions it wud have. He may have frozen in place the natural order of things, cutting off what would be the hold of death, so the souls of the departed didn't go thru Hood's gate. And indeed the whole system failed to become more complex over time (as tehol points out that everything tends towards complexity), thus they were left with Holds for a time. Even still certain foreigners are able to access warrens whilst there, though not successfully all the time (Corlo).
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Posted 15 May 2007 - 07:11 AM

I would take kind of differing opinion about the relationship between the Warrens (including Elder ones), Holds, Houses and gods.

In short, new Ultimate Theory of Everything.

As there seem to be two conflicting chronologies, let's divide the problem into two planes.

First: matter (in other words - Wu reality) and spirit magic.

As we know from Wickan words - there was a time BEFORE of the Warrens (DG), where you found power inside. Quick Ben states in BH that this kind of magic reaches back to Eres - and it seems that their "mother", Eres is the eldest spirit on this world (Rhulad, MT).

Let's dwell on Eres topic a little: it is HER world. She is the fire that never dies (Ruin, MT). And all it seems she is also a sole origin of all human races (that is: the Eres, Imass and humans as known in modern days).

With Eres, there come the Wolves - Togg and Fanderay. The eldest companions, as they are described. And that forms the base of the most primordial pantheon, older even than Elder Gods in this world.

There is second base plane: idea (or magic)
As abstract ideas go, first there was Darkness (simply The Darkness, and NOT Kurald Galain), embodied by MD, and Chaos - everything possible, but without a direction or meaning (MoI). Inside the Darkness elemental forces [ideas] dwelled (BH), representing different faces of Order. As they are not only from this world (BH), they influence all the worlds in Malazan multiverse.
Inside the Darkness, Tiste Andii were created, and Deragoth come into beeing [best not to dwell how MD could have birthed the Dark Hounds].

And Mother Dark seeked something that is not defined inside her and hence Light has come into being (GotM), which brought angst and strife between Tiste Andii. With the creation of the Light, Father Light assumes/becomes bound to The Light, much like MD embodies The Darkness.

At about the time K'rul literally forges first two Elder Warrens out of Chaos (Starvald Demelain, the First Warren, the embodiment of change and variety) and Darkness (Kurald Galain - the Absolute Order, that was before the light)
Tiam assumes/is bound as an embodiment of change and power and K'rul is forever bound as an embodiment of Warrens (ways of magic), therefore the flow of magic is indeed the blood of K'rul. Out of Starvald Demelain there come the pure blooded Eleint, each aspected as a different kind of magic - and around their flight, Elder Warrens form.

The Shadow, Kurald Emurlahn is born among them , and I assume a specific deity assumes/is bound to concept of Shadow. (note: not Scabandari, as we know he came into power later and by regicide - slaying of the royal family [BH]).

The Elder Warrens encompass all aspects of the given issue (like KG - encompasses also the "darkness in the soul", or Tellan - "fire is life and life is fire"). It also means, Elder Warrens and their inhabitants are not pure ideas any more, but also have degraded into physical form. The classical Paths are more refined - they govern over a small fraction of the Elder Warrens' aspects, but are much easier to control and channel, allowing greater finesse.

At some point, as their physical aspect rises, Elder Warrens connect with the reality of Wu. And this infests both minds and bloods of the Founding Races with certain ideas (embodied by Tellan, in case of Imass...). It also opens a road to invasion - Deragoth are probably the most significant example of such intrusion.

I assume, that no Elder God (not Eres, Togg - these weren't EG) could stand on mortal grounds without becoming worshipped and known as a certain personification of the idea, and spilling of blood is the offal to the EGs (MoI) because it forms a conduit between said god and reality.

As different shades of reality are linked, war is inevitable. As spilling of blood is such a strong conduit, a need for some moderation ensues. And so Errant comes into being and creates an order of Holds, where each Hold represents current contestants on the mortal ground (well, in a sense - there, where pure ideas are no more ideas but become physical manifestations). Current, which means that places in any given Hold are dynamic, and there is always some kind of power behind any given player holding a role.

And that is when Hood becomes Death (personification!). I stand that he is a Jaghut, as if Tellan encompasses life [GotM] - it's opposite (Omtose Phellack) should encompass death.

During the flow of time, both gods and mortal races evolve, growing to power, giving birth to champions (Ascendent ones among them) - and evolution of the Holds itself.

About 300 000 before Burn's sleep KE is Sundered, Tiste races invade and Ritual of Tellan is performed. The history begins.

Notes:

1) We don't know much about the origins of other Founding Races apart from the Imass - therefore I haven't yet fit their history into the timeliine.
2) Blood seems to be single most powerful item in the whole world - blood is a thoughest bind to break, it is simply liquid power
3) Otataral is a byproduct of magic use, if any powerful enough ritual is performed, otataral may form. (Heboric, HoC?).
4) Otataral Dragon is in my opinion a "erasure rubber" to destroy Warrens, if needed. Her name is uncertain.
5) Shapeshifting seems to be connected with some kind of a pact with the creature you shift into - for example, bonecasters seem to always have first part of their name fetched from the Imass word for the creature (compare: Hentos Ilm, Ay Estos, Olar Ethil), the Silverfox tatoo [GotM]
6) Sleeping with Tiam seems to be quite a popular way of becoming a shapeshifter :p however the crucial part may be "the mixing of blood" [Osserc/Sisters dialogue, MT]
7) High Houses seem to be a refinement of Holds - changed and improved over the years, and not an alternative system.
8) Azath is not a prison per se, but a safekeeper (Paran/Draconus in MoI, Cotillion seems to imply something similar in BH) - an emergency vent, in case drastic changes are needed.
9) Warrens (at least their "physical" ends) are everywhere - and that means a wound of one Warren can influence others in the same "place" [that weird overlapping of warrens on Raraku Desert, a hole burned through "warren after warren" in Y'Ghatan (sp?)]
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#47 User is offline   flea 

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 01:37 PM

Damn, you came up with this for your 3rd post. Nice.

I love it when people think before they speak.
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#48 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 01:59 PM

Excellent work, darkwolf. I'm not really confident about the progression from Elder Warrens to Holds to "modern" warrens, but can't argue with what you set down.

darkwolf;185176 said:

5) Shapeshifting seems to be connected with some kind of a pact with the creature you shift into - for example, bonecasters seem to always have first part of their name fetched from the Imass word for the creature (compare: Hentos Ilm, Ay Estos, Olar Ethil), the Silverfox tatoo [GotM]


Interesting - when were Hentos and Olar revealed as Imass animal words? And does this go for all Bonecasters, so that, for example, "monok" is Imass for "gorilla"?
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#49 User is offline   Where is Dassem Ultor? 

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 03:02 PM

Regarding the question of what happens to a warren bereft of dragons:

I believe that an empty warren (no pun intended...) can be used in whichever way those who draw on it want. There would be no punishment incurred for using such a warren to wreak havoc. This may be too simplistic; the things that gives me pause are the re-awakening of High House Shadow and Mael's warren.

Of the two people who know who use Ruse, Ebron is one, and Mallick Rel is the other. We know now that Mael feels the pull on his own power when his followers oppose him, and hopefully in the future he'll get around to addressing the wayward Rel. So, in that sense, it would make sense to me that you could use power unchecked with no guardians to a warren.

That, or it would dry up. Were Rashan and Meanas viable warrens before the awakening of HHS? I am not sure if people used them before ST and Cotillion re-awakened the house....
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#50 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 03:06 PM

Dolorous Menhir;185284 said:

Interesting - when were Hentos and Olar revealed as Imass animal words? And does this go for all Bonecasters, so that, for example, "monok" is Imass for "gorilla"?

Ulthran Pral or whatever Onrack's son's name was says Olar in the list of Elient while Udinaas and Feather Witch are there in MT. In a "Olar. Elient. *list of names*" way.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
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#51 User is offline   buddhacat 

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 06:51 PM

High House Shadow is not bereft of Dragons. IIRC, 2 of the 3 chained Dragons are aspected to Shadow.

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 08:04 PM

Illuyankas;185308 said:

Ulthran Pral or whatever Onrack's son's name was says Olar in the list of Elient while Udinaas and Feather Witch are there in MT. In a "Olar. Elient. *list of names*" way.


Yes, that is one hint. Moreover, she states in MoI that she assumes a form of a Tiam's sibling [twin] (though she does not name the sibling, the passage from MT gives you a reason to believe it was Olar).
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#53 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 08:16 PM

darkwolf;185513 said:

Yes, that is one hint. Moreover, she states in MoI that she assumes a form of a Tiam's sibling [twin] (though she does not name the sibling, the passage from MT gives you a reason to believe it was Olar).


I don't understand how that shows that "Olar" means dragon, or Eleint. All the quote

"I am as an undead twin to Tiam"

means to me is that her Soletaken form is a big dragon, not that her name means dragon. It doesn't imply a relationship between Olar & Tiam either, just a resemblance.
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Posted 15 May 2007 - 08:54 PM

Dolorous Menhir;185284 said:

Interesting - when were Hentos and Olar revealed as Imass animal words? And does this go for all Bonecasters, so that, for example, "monok" is Imass for "gorilla"?


My mistake about hentos, I have jumped the gun a little.

There is a passage between Monok Ochem and Onrack in HoC which goes like:
"Tenag Ilbaie, Soletaken with tenag form".

Also, I have not found any contradicting claim (that first part of Bonecasters' name doesn't imply his form).

The only Imass' shapeshifter we've seen to date that clearly doesn't follow this rule is Onrack - yet, as we know from HoC, name of Imasss chosen to serve as
a Bonecaster is changed, and I assume Onrack returned to his own name when Absin Tholai took his place as Clan Bonecaster.
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Posted 15 May 2007 - 09:01 PM

Dolorous Menhir;185527 said:

I don't understand how that shows that "Olar" means dragon, or Eleint. All the quote

"I am as an undead twin to Tiam"

means to me is that her Soletaken form is a big dragon, not that her name means dragon. It doesn't imply a relationship between Olar & Tiam either, just a resemblance.


But Olar (not "Olar Ethil") is quoted to be a pure blooded Eleint name in MT, therefore, if my theory is correct, we can understand it as that she assumes the form of Olar (a particular dragon). It doesn't mean Olar should translate to "dragon", in any case.
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#56 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 09:02 PM

darkwolf;185549 said:

Also, I have not found any contradicting claim (that first part of Bonecasters' name doesn't imply his form).

The only Imass' shapeshifter we've seen to date that clearly doesn't follow this rule is Onrack - yet, as we know from HoC, name of Imasss chosen to serve as
a Bonecaster is changed, and I assume Onrack returned to his own name when Absin Tholai took his place as Clan Bonecaster.


Not so.

The two Bonecasters who were with Rud Ellale & Ulshun Pral had the same Soletaken form - long-legged bears with vestigial tails, covered in thick brown and black hair, with flattened snouts, at their shoulders the height of a Tiste - and differing names.

Til'aras Benok
Gr'istanas Ish'ilm

They were both of the Bentract, so can't argue that it is different dialects naming the same creature.
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Posted 15 May 2007 - 09:10 PM

Where is Dassem Ultor?;185305 said:

Were Rashan and Meanas viable warrens before the awakening of HHS? I am not sure if people used them before ST and Cotillion re-awakened the house....


Yes, they were. Kellanved was one notable user of Meanas, and Bidithal used to be rashan'ais (High Priest of Rasha) before Malazans came.
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#58 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 09:17 PM

Olar wasn't quoted to be an Elient name, all the names were in one sentence separated by commas, and Olar was on it's own. Damn, I need my copy of MT back for this. VAISKI!
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
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Posted 15 May 2007 - 09:22 PM

Dolorous Menhir;185555 said:

Not so.

The two Bonecasters who were with Rud Ellale & Ulshun Pral had the same Soletaken form - long-legged bears with vestigial tails, covered in thick brown and black hair, with flattened snouts, at their shoulders the height of a Tiste - and differing names.

Til'aras Benok
Gr'istanas Ish'ilm

They were both of the Bentract, so can't argue that it is different dialects naming the same creature.


According to MT they don't exist (Bonecaster of remaining Bentract clans has decided to lock the leak, and petrificated herself).

That part seems a little fishy at a moment, maybe when I'll get my own RG copy I'll try to analyze it from cover to cover. Haven't had time to do so now, so I don't argue on things which are RG-specific.
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#60 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 09:27 PM

Wait, you haven't read Reaper's Gale? Or you just can't remember?

The two Bonecaster I'm talking about are outsiders to Ulshun Pral's community. Ulshun's Bonecaster gave up her soul to seal a rent, but that has nothing to do with this pair.
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