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I notice people are calling the world of Malaz "wu" i don't remember it being reffered to as that in the books. Is this just a convenient name that was made up in these forums?
Regarding the Warrens: An attempt at a Malazan Theory of Everything
#22
Shield Anvil 
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Posted 19 September 2006 - 10:09 AM
If memory serves it was originally a joke between SE and ICE and we[the board] kind of adopted it.
#24
Illuyankas
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Posted 19 September 2006 - 01:08 PM
Not to mention a place in Saltram called Wu's Closet from MOI.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
#25
Obdigore
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Posted 19 September 2006 - 02:40 PM
Illuyankas;117586 said:
Not to mention a place in Saltram called Wu's Closet from MOI.
Where like 12 streets met, and there was an inn that burned down... I remember that!
Monster Hunter World Iceborne: It's like hunting monsters, but on crack, but the monsters are also on crack.
#26
spiralx
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Posted 27 September 2006 - 10:19 AM
Shapefinder;115941 said:
My take is that every system of magic in Wu is an attempt to draw on the basic forces that govern the universe. Even the Elder Gods themselves are attempts to give form and structure to these forces. To my mind the Elder Gods are like walking Holds. There are different ways of drawing on these forces, so that the Imass and the Liosan and humans can form different paths to the same source, with each path determined by the perspective of the ones shaping it.
Expanding things, in the same way that warrens and gates and earth/blood magic give metaphysical structure to elemental forces Houses and Holds are attempts to give physical structure to these powers. These are ontological forms that give definition to the forces they draw upon. The transition from Holds to Houses describes a more refined or perhaps rigorous defining of the element. So Hood's warren can be both a physical place and a method of drawing power to manipulate the world all formed by the same element. And the House of Death is an ontological fixture that allows greater manipulation of the element in question by essentially fixing the relationships of the element to reality. Perhaps the reason that Holds are both more chaotic and powerful than warrens/Houses is that with Holds there is no seperation between the path and the place.
When K'rul shaped the warrens (in the path sense) he needed the dragons to give a physical shape to the forces the warrens access. In this sense dragons and Elder Gods are the true precursers to Houses - they create a conceptual focal point for the elemental forces within Wu reality. They are the first imposition of an order on chaos.
Expanding things, in the same way that warrens and gates and earth/blood magic give metaphysical structure to elemental forces Houses and Holds are attempts to give physical structure to these powers. These are ontological forms that give definition to the forces they draw upon. The transition from Holds to Houses describes a more refined or perhaps rigorous defining of the element. So Hood's warren can be both a physical place and a method of drawing power to manipulate the world all formed by the same element. And the House of Death is an ontological fixture that allows greater manipulation of the element in question by essentially fixing the relationships of the element to reality. Perhaps the reason that Holds are both more chaotic and powerful than warrens/Houses is that with Holds there is no seperation between the path and the place.
When K'rul shaped the warrens (in the path sense) he needed the dragons to give a physical shape to the forces the warrens access. In this sense dragons and Elder Gods are the true precursers to Houses - they create a conceptual focal point for the elemental forces within Wu reality. They are the first imposition of an order on chaos.
Great post, this sums up how I've seen it very succinctly. Using the warrens through the Houses seems to provide a finer, more controlled means of using magic, very focussed in what it can do. Whereas using the Holds seems to both lack some of the finesse, but allow more things to be done... perhaps because they define the forces less definitely and thus allow more leeway.
#27 Guest_TeblorRage_*
Posted 28 September 2006 - 01:24 AM
1. I like the idea that Gods (even Elder Gods) are shaped by the 'warren' that they control and vice versa. However, if we want to push it further it is the worship by sentient beings that creates the god. For example, without worshippers Krul has been practically vanished (and definitely weakened).
2. Theory about the Otataral dragon: Why not it being Tiam??? Remember that Anomander Rake, Ossric, The Queen of Dreams, Lady Envy and Caladan Brood wandered together in the beginning and shaped everything that is. Along with others their great feat was that they closed the way to Tiam and her continuous deaths and births and so they imposed order. In fact they closed the way to SD. How else could the gate to SD be closed, but by THE Otataral dragon (who we know that it was chained by other dragons)? And why not the Otataral dragon is Tiam herself, since it is such a peculiar thing-unique among the dragons which are the embodiment of magic?
I am not certain if Anomander and cia in fact killed or enslaved Tiam. I do not remember clearly, but if there is such a passage in any of the books I bet all my money that Tiam=The Otataral dragon.
3. Feral dragons. I disagree with the explanation in the beginning. It presupposes that dragons are more or less alligned to the same fundamental purposes. Why not civil wars among dragons existed and exist just like between Andii? One good explanation could be that feral dragons are dragons that denied to participate in the shaping of the warrens (ie of order). Keep in mind that in MT says that the dragons are going to war and in BH that in the whole thing dragons are fundamental in what is to come (Edgewalker to Cotillion). Why not the continuation of the ancient war of dragons? At the end of the day Tiam should have some children that were with her side against Rake and the others.
2. Theory about the Otataral dragon: Why not it being Tiam??? Remember that Anomander Rake, Ossric, The Queen of Dreams, Lady Envy and Caladan Brood wandered together in the beginning and shaped everything that is. Along with others their great feat was that they closed the way to Tiam and her continuous deaths and births and so they imposed order. In fact they closed the way to SD. How else could the gate to SD be closed, but by THE Otataral dragon (who we know that it was chained by other dragons)? And why not the Otataral dragon is Tiam herself, since it is such a peculiar thing-unique among the dragons which are the embodiment of magic?
I am not certain if Anomander and cia in fact killed or enslaved Tiam. I do not remember clearly, but if there is such a passage in any of the books I bet all my money that Tiam=The Otataral dragon.
3. Feral dragons. I disagree with the explanation in the beginning. It presupposes that dragons are more or less alligned to the same fundamental purposes. Why not civil wars among dragons existed and exist just like between Andii? One good explanation could be that feral dragons are dragons that denied to participate in the shaping of the warrens (ie of order). Keep in mind that in MT says that the dragons are going to war and in BH that in the whole thing dragons are fundamental in what is to come (Edgewalker to Cotillion). Why not the continuation of the ancient war of dragons? At the end of the day Tiam should have some children that were with her side against Rake and the others.
#28
Dark Mac
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Posted 28 September 2006 - 03:25 AM
From Poliel's example, I doubt anyone would enjoy drinking the blood of or having sex with an Otataral Dragon, which is a major piece of evidence against Tiam being the OD. Also, I don't believe that the OD was described as Elder. Finally, since people seem to be good at recognizing ancient figures of power, I think that people would recognize Tiam if they saw her.
#29
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Posted 28 September 2006 - 06:15 AM
TeblorRage;120251 said:
1. I like the idea that Gods (even Elder Gods) are shaped by the 'warren' that they control and vice versa. However, if we want to push it further it is the worship by sentient beings that creates the god. For example, without worshippers Krul has been practically vanished (and definitely weakened).
2. Theory about the Otataral dragon: Why not it being Tiam??? Remember that Anomander Rake, Ossric, The Queen of Dreams, Lady Envy and Caladan Brood wandered together in the beginning and shaped everything that is.
2. Theory about the Otataral dragon: Why not it being Tiam??? Remember that Anomander Rake, Ossric, The Queen of Dreams, Lady Envy and Caladan Brood wandered together in the beginning and shaped everything that is.
They were simply companions, but didn't shape everything. That was K'rul's doing.
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Along with others their great feat was that they closed the way to Tiam and her continuous deaths and births and so they imposed order. In fact they closed the way to SD. How else could the gate to SD be closed, but by THE Otataral dragon (who we know that it was chained by other dragons)? And why not the Otataral dragon is Tiam herself, since it is such a peculiar thing-unique among the dragons which are the embodiment of magic?
I am not certain if Anomander and cia in fact killed or enslaved Tiam. I do not remember clearly, but if there is such a passage in any of the books I bet all my money that Tiam=The Otataral dragon.
I am not certain if Anomander and cia in fact killed or enslaved Tiam. I do not remember clearly, but if there is such a passage in any of the books I bet all my money that Tiam=The Otataral dragon.
I'm rather fond of the Tiam = Otataral dragon theory myself. It would make sense for Tiam to be described as a she-nightmare if that were the case.
We know the otataral dragon was bound by the mixed bloods. My own thought is that she was bound, because of all the dragons, she was the one who could return to this realm at will. Of course there's nothing to back it up!
#30
The Rope
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Posted 28 September 2006 - 06:36 AM
I think the Houses of the Deck are not simply refinements of the holds, but rather divisions within the holds. Pick up a sharp rock, you can cut a rope - but in the meantime destroy it. Break that rock up and use smaller shards that can be shaped, the use is more focused, the intended purpose is refined, and obviously, tis easier to wield a smaller object. Holds were too generalized, but there are more warrens (as malazan mages use them) then there are holds (as Ceda's use them), which indicates that there is not more aspects, but rather more specific applications of those aspects. The rock is also more powerful...
Does that make sense? Is my knowledge infantile and im all wrong?
Does that make sense? Is my knowledge infantile and im all wrong?
#31
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Posted 28 September 2006 - 08:17 AM
Interesting thread...
@stonesnake:
Imho, if SD is not chaos-aspected, it definitely causes conflict with other Warrens. I seem to recall someone saying about Rake that his (Rake's) blood warred in his veins after drinking from Tiam - to me, it suggests a profound struggle between KG (Order) and SD (Chaos).
Imho, the Azath is the force that is supposed to balance the scales - or perhaps a force that tries to eliminate the powers of old, enabling a new set of "gods" to emerge.
Kind of stupid idea: the "From wandering, to holds, to houses" represents basically the emerging human civilization, perhaps even helped along by the Eres...
@Maknavox:
She was definitely the basis used by SE, imho - if I remember correctly, Tiamat was killed by Marduk (google-fu: more accurate info here).
@stonesnake:
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It seems safe to suggest that Starvald Demelain and the dragons that embody and inhabit it are chaos-aspected.
Imho, if SD is not chaos-aspected, it definitely causes conflict with other Warrens. I seem to recall someone saying about Rake that his (Rake's) blood warred in his veins after drinking from Tiam - to me, it suggests a profound struggle between KG (Order) and SD (Chaos).
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And of course, the crucial element? How does this figure in to the Houses of the Azath, you ask?
Imho, the Azath is the force that is supposed to balance the scales - or perhaps a force that tries to eliminate the powers of old, enabling a new set of "gods" to emerge.
Kind of stupid idea: the "From wandering, to holds, to houses" represents basically the emerging human civilization, perhaps even helped along by the Eres...
@Maknavox:
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Tiam is probebly a old dragon from the mesopetomianblablathingy era(props to the guy who told me this). The dragon was the creative force of chaos, named Tiamat... It also got killed by gods/acendants
She was definitely the basis used by SE, imho - if I remember correctly, Tiamat was killed by Marduk (google-fu: more accurate info here).
#32
The Rope
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Posted 01 October 2006 - 10:48 PM
I just realized something - in Feather Witch's reading of the tiles, the Beast Hold is occupied by T&F - the wolves who also occupy High House War as Lords of War... the holds are not just older versions... supports the theory of divisions maybe?
Any thoughts from more experienced members with better knowledge of this subject?
Any thoughts from more experienced members with better knowledge of this subject?
#33
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Posted 02 October 2006 - 06:17 AM
The Rope;120270 said:
I think the Houses of the Deck are not simply refinements of the holds, but rather divisions within the holds. Pick up a sharp rock, you can cut a rope - but in the meantime destroy it. Break that rock up and use smaller shards that can be shaped, the use is more focused, the intended purpose is refined, and obviously, tis easier to wield a smaller object. Holds were too generalized, but there are more warrens (as malazan mages use them) then there are holds (as Ceda's use them), which indicates that there is not more aspects, but rather more specific applications of those aspects. The rock is also more powerful...
Does that make sense? Is my knowledge infantile and im all wrong?
Does that make sense? Is my knowledge infantile and im all wrong?
Hmmm.. You say the Holds were too generalised, but I think they were more specific
Holds are racially aspected... Hold of Ice is Jaghut (Omtose Phellack) Hold of Shadow (Kurald Emurlahn) etc etc. Houses however are an expansion. A position within a House can be held by any race... and those holding the positions can wield different forms of power/warrens.
#34 Guest_Maknavox_*
Posted 02 October 2006 - 10:22 AM
Hetan;121283 said:
Hmmm.. You say the Holds were too generalised, but I think they were more specific Holds are racially aspected... Hold of Ice is Jaghut (Omtose Phellack) Hold of Shadow (Kurald Emurlahn) etc etc. Houses however are an expansion. A position within a House can be held by any race... and those holding the positions can wield different forms of power/warrens.
Holds are racially aspected... Hold of Ice is Jaghut (Omtose Phellack) Hold of Shadow (Kurald Emurlahn) etc etc. Houses however are an expansion. A position within a House can be held by any race... and those holding the positions can wield different forms of power/warrens.Thats not compleetly true. The Imass have breached Omtose and can acces it. (though i dont know that also expands to using it)
And the merchant mages can use tellann but thought they would offend the Imass if they did.
This theory dosnt explain a few things.
Why is there is hold of ice. but no path and no house? while there is a hold of death a house of death AND a path.
Why is there a hold of fire, a path of fire but no house? Is there no connection between them all?
What is the connection between holds/houses and warrens/paths.
#35
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Posted 02 October 2006 - 11:26 AM
Maknavox;121330 said:
Why is there is hold of ice. but no path and no house? while there is a hold of death a house of death AND a path.
Why is there a hold of fire, a path of fire but no house? Is there no connection between them all?
What is the connection between holds/houses and warrens/paths.
Why is there a hold of fire, a path of fire but no house? Is there no connection between them all?
What is the connection between holds/houses and warrens/paths.
Just a couple of ideas:
- Hold of Ice: the association with a single race is too strong, and every myth ties the Hold to the Jaghut; no need for a Warren or House to evolve. Also, jaghut are too individualistic to form a House of their own, imho.
- Death, however is different and existent for every race/ethnicity, so it could "evolve" into a Warren and a House.
- Tellan/Telas => Imass->human line. House not needed, as the Imass have only a two- (maybe three-) tier society: Bonecasters, clan chiefs, "normal" Imass. Imho, there is a strong connection, as Telas (High Telas) is described as a "child of Tellan" (MoI, siege of Black Coral, if I remember correctly)
- Holds are a bit like the "raw soul" of a race, its fountain of power and spiritual homeland. Warrens are refined, narrowed pathways to tap into this ancient energy. Houses are part of a balancing structure intoduced by the Azath.
These are just crazy personal theories, mind you.
#36
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Posted 02 October 2006 - 05:18 PM
Maknavox;121330 said:
Thats not compleetly true. The Imass have breached Omtose and can acces it. (though i dont know that also expands to using it)
And the merchant mages can use tellann but thought they would offend the Imass if they did.
And the merchant mages can use tellann but thought they would offend the Imass if they did.
Sure, but those are the warrens you are talking about. I am talking about the positions within the Holds... these are racially aspected
#37
The Rope
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Posted 03 October 2006 - 04:29 AM
Mind you, the holds have only shown up in the last two books as anything more than just a minor references, and while there has been extensive discussion by characters and writers (beginning of each chapter...) about warrens and houses and paths, there has been very little about the holds other than Feather Witch's, Ceda and Brys' reading of the tiles... Ithink there will be more clarifiction later in the series - at least I hope so...
Remember too that the mages of the Edur have not all been using fragments of Emurlahn... some are using another Hold's power...
Remember too that the mages of the Edur have not all been using fragments of Emurlahn... some are using another Hold's power...
#38
frank
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Posted 25 October 2006 - 01:32 PM
I belive that holds, houses, warrens comes from the same "pool". The more recent versions are just more specialised.
Where did the elder gods "hide" at the start? As far as I've understood gods belong to only one world, so the elder gods belonges to Wu. But the K'Chain kept the elder gods from Wu and the Deregoth were there even before them.
My understanding of the Azath is that they are from the primal source that kept order and caos peacefully together at the start and that their function is to keep the balance between the two.
And I don't know if anyone have made it clear in this thread, but the dragons helping Kruul were multi aspected.
Where did the elder gods "hide" at the start? As far as I've understood gods belong to only one world, so the elder gods belonges to Wu. But the K'Chain kept the elder gods from Wu and the Deregoth were there even before them.
My understanding of the Azath is that they are from the primal source that kept order and caos peacefully together at the start and that their function is to keep the balance between the two.
And I don't know if anyone have made it clear in this thread, but the dragons helping Kruul were multi aspected.
#39
Aptorian
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Posted 25 October 2006 - 01:53 PM
It seems that you are right in you assumption that all magic comes from the same source, wandering , holds and houses was just the way they were channeled or represented before.
But about the gods it's a bit difficult. The new ones belong to Wu but the with the Elder Gods it's different. They seem to have come out of Chaos but this could just be because it's so close to Darkness. It's said that Mother Dark gave birth to the Elder Gods. But other Elder Gods seem to come from "The Elements" Dark, Light, Shadow, Fire, Water, Earth, Time, Space, etc.
Personally I can't understand half of it.
But about the gods it's a bit difficult. The new ones belong to Wu but the with the Elder Gods it's different. They seem to have come out of Chaos but this could just be because it's so close to Darkness. It's said that Mother Dark gave birth to the Elder Gods. But other Elder Gods seem to come from "The Elements" Dark, Light, Shadow, Fire, Water, Earth, Time, Space, etc.
Personally I can't understand half of it.
#40 Guest_Who What Were_*
Posted 29 October 2006 - 07:32 PM
Well holds are in krul arnt they as they are just less refined warens and must be part of krul as he has darkness and dragon as his heart. Also is his nature the god of warrens/ sorcery so holds must have been part of him as he prob came about when the warrens when from migration to holds that was proberly his doing.
I believe it says in one book that the elder gods are as old or older then darkness as darkness's nature is to rule only it self so the elder sgods were involved from the start prob the same time as darkness came from chaos.
I believe it says in one book that the elder gods are as old or older then darkness as darkness's nature is to rule only it self so the elder sgods were involved from the start prob the same time as darkness came from chaos.
