[Dagger]

OK, time for another American to log in.

As far as the armour goes, believe me, you need it. The injury rates in this sport are astronomical - without padding it would go through the roof and probably result in fatalities. Picture getting pounded into the turf by 3 300 pound behemouths that are all travelling at 30 mph. I fully appreciate the skill and endurance that go into rugby but it's not the same kind of hitting. Not at the level of American college football, or the NFL or CFL. The average lifespan of a career NFL player has been estimated at under 60 years of age - the bodies take too much abuse. Playing the line in the NFL is compared to running into a garage door at full speed - about 40 times in the space of 3 hours. Still want to go without a helmet or pads?

College football is certainly not the level of skill or speed that the pros have but the passion is undeniable. And the rivalries between various colleges go back a century. It's become more predictable over the last few years as the bigger schools have been padding their schedules with cupcake teams to boost their records, but when giants collide there's nothing like it. I went to a smaller US college that had a good-to-great football program. When we played our main rival, the intensity was incredible.

My picks - even though I am a Vikings fan I am thinking the two dominant teams in the NFC are Chicago and Carolina, with an edge to the Panthers. In the AFC, it's a lot tougher. That conference is really wicked. I like Denver but don't trust Jake the Snake so by default I am going with New England.

[temp]

Quote

The average lifespan of a career NFL player has been estimated at under 60 years of age - the bodies take too much abuse

heheh, I think the dietary habits of the offensive line might have to do with that statistic as well. mmm, 10 raw eggs and a 12 ounce steak...and that's just a light snack before breakfast.

[Sir Thursday]

See the passion thing is the reason why I don't think the American sports model is the way to go. In Europe there are rivalries that run to the highest level in sports - you see derbies in many sports in Europe, but as far as I'm aware the only one in the US is Clippers v Lakers in basketball. The franchise system that they operate under in the US to my mind limits the rivalries that can develop at the highest level. Add to that the playoff system which takes a great deal of importance out of the regular season unless you are a genuine contender for a place in the last 16/8 or whatever, and you get sportsmen who aren't as passionate or committed.

While player apathy is becoming more common, especially in football over here, in general the players still exhibit plenty of emotion and drive on the pitch, which negates the need for a college version.

I think one of the other things that we benefit from in Europe is the fact that we play international matches often in various sports. There are international rivalries as well as domestic, and this acts both for the creation of compelling viewing and for an outlet for any nationalistic tendancies one might have. I have a theory that one of the main reasons that the US is so patriotic is that they don't play international sports matches as much, and thus have no way to express their nationalism. It instead gets channelled into general flag waving and creates a feeling of superiority through isolationism.

Sir Thursday

[Darkwatch]

Canada still participates periodically in the World Series I believe (that is if you consider Toronto and their Bluejays canadian) and at the AAA level (I think) there is alot of competition between the U.S. and Canada, not to mention the NHL which runs on both sides of the border, the NBA has two canadian teams in it (if the grizzlys are still around). And most amateur sports occur between both Canada and the U.S. as well as other sorts of competitions.

[Sir Thursday]

Grizzlies are now in Memphis, so just the Toronto Raptors left in the NBA.

That's not really what I believe constitutes international competition though...given that Canadians can play for US teams and visa versa, it sort of takes some of the sting out of things. When I was there (note that I haven't lived in the US for 7 years now, so I wouldn't really know) I heard nothing about competition between the US and Canada...I suppose there is a rivalry in Ice Hockey, but when that is the 4th sport in the US it doesn't make for huge fervour...

Feel free to correct me if you know better, as I would certainly not claim to be an expert on the subject (I'm basing my opinions on 1 year's worth of fantasy basketball and three years hearing the odd tidbit about baseball from friends).

Sir Thursday

[Darkwatch]

At the professional level, I know that the competition is diluted by the fact that canadians and americans canplay for either side. But I think the same thing happens in footbal in europe as I recall Munich hiring a Hungarian to play on their team.
Now if your talking the countries national teams then of course as in Europe here its country versus country, unfortunately I don't know of any football (north american version) Team Canada. What I do know is that if you stay in the amateur or semi professional leagues(which cross borders) which recruit locally and only allow citizens of the country the team belongs to to play in that team then of course the rivalry is stronger. Examples Les Capitales de Qu?bec have played almost all their series against U.S. teams this year. But of course the problem there is it is nowhere near as mediated and thus known by most people.

[tiam]

Jen said:

pft...NFL...why don't just call it for what it is...RUGBY...grr...and I do not understand why in Gods name its called Football...the ball rarely touches the foot! and what in the world does Soccer mean...*runs around screaming*
*sigh* - end rant

I completely agree. We (the british) invented football. We decide what its called. You cant just change th name of rugby to football then think 'wait we havent got a name for the original football hmmmm.....soccer thatll do'

Note i am slightly biased of course being British and not likeing the American culture

[Dagger]

Sir Thursday;112872 said:

See the passion thing is the reason why I don't think the American sports model is the way to go. In Europe there are rivalries that run to the highest level in sports - you see derbies in many sports in Europe, but as far as I'm aware the only one in the US is Clippers v Lakers in basketball. The franchise system that they operate under in the US to my mind limits the rivalries that can develop at the highest level. Add to that the playoff system which takes a great deal of importance out of the regular season unless you are a genuine contender for a place in the last 16/8 or whatever, and you get sportsmen who aren't as passionate or committed.

While player apathy is becoming more common, especially in football over here, in general the players still exhibit plenty of emotion and drive on the pitch, which negates the need for a college version.

I think one of the other things that we benefit from in Europe is the fact that we play international matches often in various sports. There are international rivalries as well as domestic, and this acts both for the creation of compelling viewing and for an outlet for any nationalistic tendancies one might have. I have a theory that one of the main reasons that the US is so patriotic is that they don't play international sports matches as much, and thus have no way to express their nationalism. It instead gets channelled into general flag waving and creates a feeling of superiority through isolationism.

Sir Thursday

Valid points but there are a couple things that only a native would understand. First of all, the Lakers/Clippers rivalry has to be one of the most tepid in the US. Outside of Los Angeles, no one even remotely notes that one. In fact, NBA basketball does not have many strong rivalries, professional football and baseball have far older, deeper, and much, much more contenious wars. Just try wearing a New York Yankees jersey into any bar north of Connecticutt. College football and basketball are just as intense. In LA, there is a far more illustrious history to the rivalry between USCA and USC than the Lakers/Clippers could ever aspire to. There was one football game between USCA and USC where a fan had actually planted a homemade land mine in the endzone to greet the first rival to cross the goal line (lucky someone spotted the wires before the first kickoff).

Take the NFL. I am in what is now the North Division of the NFC. It used to be what was called the Central Division and nicknamed the Black n' Blue division. There are rivalries here going back to the start of pro football (Bears vs. Packers). Three cities within a day's drive of each other - Chicago, Minneapolis/St Paul, and Green Bay. And when it comes to football, they utterly and completely despise one another, and have for over 40 years.

The other component that people outside the US miss, is that this country is made up of 50 states. Of course, there are feelings of competition between many, if not all, neighboring states. Not every state has a city big enough to support a professional sports team, but all have colleges and universities. And there are far more rivalries between those schools than one can count. Most of these schools play in conferences that regularly play teams from neighboring states, and the stakes run very, very high. The amount of money spent on college sports in the US is staggering. There are even more intense wars between schools that are within the same states. To call these games passionate is an understatement. There are storied rivalries between schools in Texas, Florida, North Carolina, Michigan, and on and on. I went to North Dakota State University in the small state of ND. If we played our rival University of North Dakota in women's synchronized swimming, there would be a sellout crowd of 15,000 and fights every five minutes in the bleachers.

Now it's generally all in good fun, no one gets killed (usually). And this is why America just doesn't get too involved in the World Cup, we've got far too much local stuff going on to worry about. This is an insular country after all. And as far as that flag-waving jingoistic behavior, that's just Republicans. Ignore them, I do.

[Kage-za]

tiam;112912 said:

I completely agree. We (the british) invented football. We decide what its called. You cant just change th name of rugby to football then think 'wait we havent got a name for the original football hmmmm.....soccer thatll do'

Note i am slightly biased of course being British and not likeing the American culture

Please see my post above about how the name soccer came about--in Britain. Note that the name soccer is still used in several former British colonies as well. At the time Americans developed their brand of football, there was still rugby football and Association (Soccer) football. After inventing American football, it was just easier to go with the names Rugby, Soccer, and Football, since the latter was the most popular.

Of course, no doubt the term soccer was too confusing for early football hooligans, so they went back to the name football so that folks would know which part of their body to use on the ball. Where is the imagination in that!

[Kage-za]

Dagger;112916 said:

Valid points but there are a couple things that only a native would understand. First of all, the Lakers/Clippers rivalry has to be one of the most tepid in the US. Outside of Los Angeles, no one even remotely notes that one. In fact, NBA basketball does not have many strong rivalries, professional football and baseball have far older, deeper, and much, much more contenious wars. Just try wearing a New York Yankees jersey into any bar north of Connecticutt. College football and basketball are just as intense. In LA, there is a far more illustrious history to the rivalry between USCA and USC than the Lakers/Clippers could ever aspire to. There was one football game between USCA and USC where a fan had actually planted a homemade land mine in the endzone to greet the first rival to cross the goal line (lucky someone spotted the wires before the first kickoff).

Take the NFL. I am in what is now the North Division of the NFC. It used to be what was called the Central Division and nicknamed the Black n' Blue division. There are rivalries here going back to the start of pro football (Bears vs. Packers). Three cities within a day's drive of each other - Chicago, Minneapolis/St Paul, and Green Bay. And when it comes to football, they utterly and completely despise one another, and have for over 40 years.

The other component that people outside the US miss, is that this country is made up of 50 states. Of course, there are feelings of competition between many, if not all, neighboring states. Not every state has a city big enough to support a professional sports team, but all have colleges and universities. And there are far more rivalries between those schools than one can count. Most of these schools play in conferences that regularly play teams from neighboring states, and the stakes run very, very high. The amount of money spent on college sports in the US is staggering. There are even more intense wars between schools that are within the same states. To call these games passionate is an understatement. There are storied rivalries between schools in Texas, Florida, North Carolina, Michigan, and on and on. I went to North Dakota State University in the small state of ND. If we played our rival University of North Dakota in women's synchronized swimming, there would be a sellout crowd of 15,000 and fights every five minutes in the bleachers.

Now it's generally all in good fun, no one gets killed (usually). And this is why America just doesn't get too involved in the World Cup, we've got far too much local stuff going on to worry about. This is an insular country after all. And as far as that flag-waving jingoistic behavior, that's just Republicans. Ignore them, I do.

Very well put, Dagger. One minor objection, but I would argue with you that from what I can tell, however, that the American fans were hugely behind this year's WC team--at least in Germany and abroad, if not at home. The test will be whether that momentum can be sustained after our team crapped the bed, and only played well in the Italy game. I do think that in a few years time, the MLS (Major League Soccer) will become a sustainable and viable sports league. They have done a great job picking their franchises and keeping things affordable to the fans for the most part, and many teams have built strong fan bases among non-traditional markets, such as Americans of Latino descent, who as a socio-economic group aren't known for their buying power (YET!).

The American sports scene has become the way it is, in part, I think, because only America has the combination of population, geography (area), television (500 channels nobody needs) and disposable income among the people. Other nations can't necessarily make so many sports leagues as viable financially.

Intense rivalries in American pro sports can be geographical (say, Yankees/Sox in the MLB) or based on arbitrary things like divisions and performance (Indy/New England in the NFL--because they've been the 2 best teams in their conference this decade). But in general, the fans are very passionate about several teams at once (one team for each major sport, for the most part) and the players get paid so much and change teams so frequently that I'm not sure if that sense of rivalry goes to the players anymore (see Johnny Damon signing with the Yankees from the rival Red Sox, or Adam Vinitieri signing with the Colts this year from the Patriots).

Like you said, college sports, though flawed, maintain those rivalries to a much greater degree. Players really care about beating their biggest rivals, and will play their hearts out accordingly. Sometimes that alone is enough to produce an upset.

Anyway, the first game kicks off for me at 930am--which means my morning at work is going to be less than productive. I'm worried about my Steelers without Big Ben, and that I didn't pick up the Dolphins D in my fantasy league because I don't want them to shut down my team (silly sentimentalism does not win championships!). I'm also worried because I am up at 4:40am writing this post. Ugh.

[Oceao]

Sir Thursday;112901 said:

(I'm basing my opinions on 1 year's worth of fantasy basketball and three years hearing the odd tidbit about baseball from friends).

Sir Thursday

That's your problem right there. The fantasy games work against traditional and regional rivalries for many people. It emphasizes individual performances over team victories. Some still have a lot of fun doing the fantasy thing and still have their own 'team' that they follow, but for others it becomes strange to have a fantasy team with players that then come into town to play against your regional team. Its less of a big deal in the NFL than NBA or MLB due to sheer number of games played. The reality of the rivalries is definately there and each city has deep rooted sport histories ingrained into their culture, as Dagger said. Green Bay is a perfect example.

[Dagger]

Indeed, if Sir Thursday were to witness the insanity that is a Packers game, complete with a tail-gate experience, then he would know what we're talking about.

Kage-za, I wouldn't worry too much about your Steelers vs. the Fish. Cowher has a way of finding a way to win. And as a Vikings fan I can tell you, too much pressure and Culpepper will fold up like a school-girl.

Oh, and dang it, what rivalry discussion is complete in North American sports without discussing hockey. College hockey in the northern states has a FANATICAL following. And Canadians take it to a level beyond that. When the number one rated television show in the country for YEARS was a hockey show, you know they take the sport just a little bit seriously.

[Obdigore]

Pretty much dagger, but i too am from MN, so I know what you mean... I have seen someone yelling at a person driving a car in the summer with a packers bumper sticker (football is a fall/winter sport). It gets bad, but I do not believe we have 'football hooligans' as you euro-types do...

[Sir Thursday]

Dagger;112936 said:

Indeed, if Sir Thursday were to witness the insanity that is a Packers game, complete with a tail-gate experience, then he would know what we're talking about.

Obviously the outsiders view is incorrect - I bow to your superior collective knowledge and experience regarding US sports. I'm afraid I still much prefer the flow of rugby over American football (with the exception of cricket, which I have come to love for its amazing strategic potential, flow is what I like - Rugby, Football, Basketball etc.)

Sir Thursday

[RodeoRanch]

Dagger;112936 said:

And Canadians take it to a level beyond that. When the number one rated television show in the country for YEARS was a hockey show, you know they take the sport just a little bit seriously.

Hockey is religion. Hockey Night in Canada is the Gospel.

Calgary hates Edmonton. In every sport. Actually, we just plain hate Edmonton....

[Obdigore]

RodeoRanch;112959 said:

Hockey is religion. Hockey Night in Canada is the Gospel.

Calgary hates Edmonton. In every sport. Actually, we just plain hate Edmonton....

Yes, because your silly little football is just odd. Hockey is the only sport you can compete (and I admit it, most of the best hockey players are canucks) in.

[RodeoRanch]

Obdigore;112962 said:

Yes, because your silly little football is just odd.

See, this why we hate you.

[Obdigore]

I believe robin williams said it best

'Canada is like a loft above a really great party. Keep it down, eh!'

Im just jokin, i have no problems with canada or canadians.

[RodeoRanch]

Oh but we have a problem with you noisy bastards. Just you wait, the invasion plans are coming along nicely. LIGHTNING BOLT!


But I've said too much.


I don't watch the NFL very often, not because of the game itself but mostly because of the overblown histrionics so amply provided by the American TV channels. I get it, the game is important. But it's not ZOMG, LIFE OR DEATH FOREVER GAME +1!!!!!!

I cheer for the Bears. But I'm not bitter.

[Obdigore]

Ha, when I watch a game, I mute the TV, and listen to some radio, or a CD, or something. I cannot stand when they literly cream in their pants over Brett Favre. He was good, once. Now he should retire and let the Packers get on with the game.... But I'm not bitter either. Jon Madden should never be allowed to speak on any broadcast of anything, ever.