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Just a thought on reading the prologue: if the congealed blood of dragons traps souls, is it possible that Draconus is so reviled by the dragons because he used the blood of dragons (possibly his own?) when forging Dragnipur?
Dragnipur: blood of dragons?
#1
Use Of Weapons 
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Posted 31 August 2006 - 05:02 PM
It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about nowadays saying things against one, behind one's back, that are absolutely and entirely true.
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Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 31 August 2006 - 05:15 PM
Nice idea. Draconus was legendary for his cruelty, but I don't remember it being specifically directed towards, or felt by, dragons. He was the Consort/Liege of Tiam, I forget which.
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Murrin
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Posted 31 August 2006 - 05:18 PM
A note on that--Dragnipur was originally much more final in its effect (as per Draconus' statements in MoI Prologue). It was only after Kallor's curse, in the final stages of Dragnipur's forging, that he put into it a place to trap souls. If it was related to Dragon blood, he did not use the blood until after the Crippled God fell.
#4
Illuyankas
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Posted 31 August 2006 - 05:31 PM
Perhaps while finishing it he 'quenched' it in a convienient dragon.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
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Posted 31 August 2006 - 07:06 PM
See, I always read his statement in MOI -- "...there is a...finality...in it" as perhaps meaning that originally there was simply no way of escaping it. But his change made it possible for an escpae to be made. I think it was always intended as a trap for souls.
It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about nowadays saying things against one, behind one's back, that are absolutely and entirely true.
-- Oscar Wilde
-- Oscar Wilde
#6
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 31 August 2006 - 08:57 PM
I always thought that meant the original design was to destroy the souls.
And then when he learned he was to be slain by it, he changed it to imprisonment.
And then when he learned he was to be slain by it, he changed it to imprisonment.
#7
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Posted 31 August 2006 - 09:14 PM
I thought that Draconus is so despised because he forced the dragons to give up part of themselves to create the warrens in K'rul, then forced them back into kurald em... where they couldnt have fun.
Also yes, I though the sword origionally(sp) was going to essentially feed the souls to the carriage thing, propelling it faster, now it makes them pull it, allowing the chains to be broken, and people freed if they are strong enough to survive.
Also yes, I though the sword origionally(sp) was going to essentially feed the souls to the carriage thing, propelling it faster, now it makes them pull it, allowing the chains to be broken, and people freed if they are strong enough to survive.
Monster Hunter World Iceborne: It's like hunting monsters, but on crack, but the monsters are also on crack.
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Posted 31 August 2006 - 09:47 PM
Obdigore;110620 said:
I thought that Draconus is so despised because he forced the dragons to give up part of themselves to create the warrens in K'rul, then forced them back into kurald em... where they couldnt have fun.
Where is the source in the text for that, it's not ringing any bells. What did Draconus have to do with the creation of the warrens.
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Posted 31 August 2006 - 09:49 PM
I cannot remember it... I thought I read that Draconus was the one that forced them to Shape K'rul's blood into warrens, then they hard to return, to KE, so they were not walking warrens or something... Maybe when the Rope is talking to the three Dragons in Shadow?
I will look for it tonight, and let you know if I find it.
I will look for it tonight, and let you know if I find it.
Monster Hunter World Iceborne: It's like hunting monsters, but on crack, but the monsters are also on crack.
#10
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 01:11 AM
If there was a way to escape Draconus would have done so long ago. It is only after millenia of thinking that he has begun to think and plan about his escape.
Thus negating the argument that Draconus removed the "finality" so to speak from the Sword by allowing escape. With the exception of the 2 Hounds no one chained has escaped and with the exception of Ganoes no one else has roamed it free.
2nd what good does it do to a cart, that obviously needs to be pulled, if the souls were destroyed? There is nothing to suggest in the novels that Draconus did make a change to the sword, apart from the statement by K'Rul urging him to. Doesn't mean he followed the advice. K'rul and Nightchill both accepted their curse, why shouldn't Draconus? (Actually there might be a quote in Memories of Ice, in a conversation between Nightchill and Ganoes that actually mentions Draconus did not heed the advice) They saw it as a fair trade. The purpose of the sword is to propel the Gate of Darkness AWAY from Chaos and it does so by having the souls pull the cart.
@Obdigore - The conversation between Cotillion and the Dragons has no mention of Dragons were forced into submission by Draconus. Secod they weren't supposed to return to KE they had to go back to Starvald Demilen(SD). Because they couldn't meddle as they were the flavours of sorcery. But the half-blood's(soletakens) stayed and meddled.
As for using the Blood of Dragons, possible...but not probable. He was clearly hated and this was before the completion of the sword, and remember K'rul or Nightchill did not know about the sword. It is highly unlikely anyone did
Edit: Okay such a quote does not exist. Nevertheless, he is an Elder God, an Elemental Force most likely. He cannot, MUST NOT, be killed. Thus my arguments still stand, anyone powerful enough to take the Sword from him would have the sense of not killing an elemental he would've known this (i would assume so)...neverthless I dont see any indications that Draconus did change the sword.
Thus negating the argument that Draconus removed the "finality" so to speak from the Sword by allowing escape. With the exception of the 2 Hounds no one chained has escaped and with the exception of Ganoes no one else has roamed it free.
2nd what good does it do to a cart, that obviously needs to be pulled, if the souls were destroyed? There is nothing to suggest in the novels that Draconus did make a change to the sword, apart from the statement by K'Rul urging him to. Doesn't mean he followed the advice. K'rul and Nightchill both accepted their curse, why shouldn't Draconus? (Actually there might be a quote in Memories of Ice, in a conversation between Nightchill and Ganoes that actually mentions Draconus did not heed the advice) They saw it as a fair trade. The purpose of the sword is to propel the Gate of Darkness AWAY from Chaos and it does so by having the souls pull the cart.
@Obdigore - The conversation between Cotillion and the Dragons has no mention of Dragons were forced into submission by Draconus. Secod they weren't supposed to return to KE they had to go back to Starvald Demilen(SD). Because they couldn't meddle as they were the flavours of sorcery. But the half-blood's(soletakens) stayed and meddled.
As for using the Blood of Dragons, possible...but not probable. He was clearly hated and this was before the completion of the sword, and remember K'rul or Nightchill did not know about the sword. It is highly unlikely anyone did
Edit: Okay such a quote does not exist. Nevertheless, he is an Elder God, an Elemental Force most likely. He cannot, MUST NOT, be killed. Thus my arguments still stand, anyone powerful enough to take the Sword from him would have the sense of not killing an elemental he would've known this (i would assume so)...neverthless I dont see any indications that Draconus did change the sword.
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#11
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 08:29 AM
The main thing I can think of that makes Dragnipur less final is that it can be shattered. Before Draconus changed it, that might have been impossible.
Eh, when Cotillion mentions killing an Elemental Force to the KE dragons they don't seem to have a problem with it, and neither does he. Personally, I doubt it would have too much of an effect, since the Elder Gods were created by the elements, not the other way around.
Jen said:
Edit: Okay such a quote does not exist. Nevertheless, he is an Elder God, an Elemental Force most likely. He cannot, MUST NOT, be killed. Thus my arguments still stand, anyone powerful enough to take the Sword from him would have the sense of not killing an elemental he would've known this (i would assume so)...neverthless I dont see any indications that Draconus did change the sword.
Eh, when Cotillion mentions killing an Elemental Force to the KE dragons they don't seem to have a problem with it, and neither does he. Personally, I doubt it would have too much of an effect, since the Elder Gods were created by the elements, not the other way around.
#12
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 10:34 AM
Jen said:
If there was a way to escape Draconus would have done so long ago. It is only after millenia of thinking that he has begun to think and plan about his escape.
Thus negating the argument that Draconus removed the "finality" so to speak from the Sword by allowing escape. With the exception of the 2 Hounds no one chained has escaped and with the exception of Ganoes no one else has roamed it free.
2nd what good does it do to a cart, that obviously needs to be pulled, if the souls were destroyed? There is nothing to suggest in the novels that Draconus did make a change to the sword, apart from the statement by K'Rul urging him to. Doesn't mean he followed the advice. K'rul and Nightchill both accepted their curse, why shouldn't Draconus? (Actually there might be a quote in Memories of Ice, in a conversation between Nightchill and Ganoes that actually mentions Draconus did not heed the advice) They saw it as a fair trade. The purpose of the sword is to propel the Gate of Darkness AWAY from Chaos and it does so by having the souls pull the cart.
Thus negating the argument that Draconus removed the "finality" so to speak from the Sword by allowing escape. With the exception of the 2 Hounds no one chained has escaped and with the exception of Ganoes no one else has roamed it free.
2nd what good does it do to a cart, that obviously needs to be pulled, if the souls were destroyed? There is nothing to suggest in the novels that Draconus did make a change to the sword, apart from the statement by K'Rul urging him to. Doesn't mean he followed the advice. K'rul and Nightchill both accepted their curse, why shouldn't Draconus? (Actually there might be a quote in Memories of Ice, in a conversation between Nightchill and Ganoes that actually mentions Draconus did not heed the advice) They saw it as a fair trade. The purpose of the sword is to propel the Gate of Darkness AWAY from Chaos and it does so by having the souls pull the cart.
I just can't agree with that assessment. I don't believe the sword was originally intended for the purpose of moving the gate of Dark. If it was already like that, then there is nothing final about it. It's far from finality: it is eternity.
#13
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 10:49 AM
@ Murrin,
the sword wasn't crafted to move the gate, the cart was. The sword was crafted to add souls to help move the cart.
IMHO it isn't even unthinkable that Draconus actually allowed himself to be slain by the sword in order to help pull the cart.
Keeping the gate form Chaos is a major objective for Draconus.
the sword wasn't crafted to move the gate, the cart was. The sword was crafted to add souls to help move the cart.
IMHO it isn't even unthinkable that Draconus actually allowed himself to be slain by the sword in order to help pull the cart.
Keeping the gate form Chaos is a major objective for Draconus.
#14
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 11:28 AM
I agree. I just don't think that when he began to make the sword he intended to give it that purpose. For one thing, he started making the sword in the time of 'all-dark'--which sounds like long before the K'Chain Chemalle doomed Dark, giving reason for such a mechanism to be created.
#15
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 01:36 PM
Dark Mac;110721 said:
Eh, when Cotillion mentions killing an Elemental Force to the KE dragons they don't seem to have a problem with it, and neither does he. Personally, I doubt it would have too much of an effect, since the Elder Gods were created by the elements, not the other way around.
From memory:
Edgewalker: "You would shatter the balance"
Cotillion: "It's already shattered!"
The dragons didn't say anything in that part of the conversation. I think they moved on from there...not sure.
So...there are complications...I assume destroying the CG is just the lesser of two evils:)
I'll comment on Murrin's post in a few.
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 06:20 PM
Murrin;110754 said:
I agree. I just don't think that when he began to make the sword he intended to give it that purpose. For one thing, he started making the sword in the time of 'all-dark'--which sounds like long before the K'Chain Chemalle doomed Dark, giving reason for such a mechanism to be created.
Dragnipur wasn't created due to the KCCM curse.It was because of the coming of Light,which had shattered the balance and weakend MD so Draconus,and probabably many others too, thought MD won't be able to defend herself.It was a mean of defence.IMHO whether the KCCM curse is true or another Edur rooted lie is to be seen.
Murrin;110754 said:
I just can't agree with that assessment. I don't believe the sword was originally intended for the purpose of moving the gate of Dark. If it was already like that, then there is nothing final about it. It's far from finality: it is eternity.
I would say imprisoning somone for eternity and knowing there is no way of escape(seems that souls can't even die,be destroyed or flee any other way) it is FINALITY.The final sentence,that can't be taken back.The effect is the same,just the mean is different(and far more cruel).
#17
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 07:21 PM
Draconus's explaination for the creation/purpose of the Sword in Memories of Ice, clearly suggests (if not confirms) the swords purpose was, from the start, to move Darkness away from Chaos.
"Wandering to Holds to Houses".
There was a natural order of things before, each warren was locked in its on cycle and chaos would ahve never caught up Darkness. That was the mistake that Draconus made, by putting the gate of darkness in Dragnipur and having souls pull the cart away from Chaos, instead of it doing it on its own, forced a limitation on the "movement" of the gate so to speak. If there aren't enough souls to pull the cart, the cart stops and chaos catches up.
The sorcery of the KCCM, has just complicated matters further because now the need for more souls is even more pressing because Chaos is "moving" much faster. Draconus's reasoning, after a kagillion years of improsenment, is this...break the sword, release the Gate and it will set it self back into its natural order and Chaos wont catch up to it.
I'm sure there are holes in this explaination (at work can't think properly here lol)...but that is the just of my argument.
As for the finality...whats more final than being imprissoned in a sword, chained to a cart, being forced to pull it, for all eternity?
"Wandering to Holds to Houses".
There was a natural order of things before, each warren was locked in its on cycle and chaos would ahve never caught up Darkness. That was the mistake that Draconus made, by putting the gate of darkness in Dragnipur and having souls pull the cart away from Chaos, instead of it doing it on its own, forced a limitation on the "movement" of the gate so to speak. If there aren't enough souls to pull the cart, the cart stops and chaos catches up.
The sorcery of the KCCM, has just complicated matters further because now the need for more souls is even more pressing because Chaos is "moving" much faster. Draconus's reasoning, after a kagillion years of improsenment, is this...break the sword, release the Gate and it will set it self back into its natural order and Chaos wont catch up to it.
I'm sure there are holes in this explaination (at work can't think properly here lol)...but that is the just of my argument.
As for the finality...whats more final than being imprissoned in a sword, chained to a cart, being forced to pull it, for all eternity?
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#19
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 08:17 PM
finality doesn't have to mean death. if something is done and cannot be undone...its final. get slain by the sword...you get trapped and you cant escape. Finailty no?
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#20
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 09:20 PM
Jen'isand: it's stated at times that the Chaos Gate will destroy all existence, eventually. Draconus thought Dragnipur could prevent that, but instead the sword only made things worse. The world would be better off without the sword, but it would still be doomed to die eventually.
The Wagon is being chased by Chaos, not Light. Since the KCCM are aspected to Chaos and the sword was being made a long time before the CG came around, what else could it be other than the KCCM deathspell?
leeloo;110861 said:
Dragnipur wasn't created due to the KCCM curse.It was because of the coming of Light,which had shattered the balance and weakend MD so Draconus,and probabably many others too, thought MD won't be able to defend herself.It was a mean of defence.IMHO whether the KCCM curse is true or another Edur rooted lie is to be seen.
The Wagon is being chased by Chaos, not Light. Since the KCCM are aspected to Chaos and the sword was being made a long time before the CG came around, what else could it be other than the KCCM deathspell?
