[Orfantal]

Well certainly the implication from the Jaghut Karsa frees, can't remember her name

There are a number of references to the TTT accompanying Imass onto their boats and then fighting the Edur in the seas for a substantial period before returning as Barghast - of course not.. this is SE and he loves to confuse and mislead us!!!

Well in my view it's both.. a mixture of the two - ie largely Imass but with a TTT contribution

Not sure at all, presumably before going to sea, those that did might have been escaping that civilisation like the Tebor did. All we know is that it was a long time ago, if the Teblor, a primitive group of refugees from that period can be classed as an Elder Race.

Good question - god knows! it might be one assumption, on the other hand the Imass involved missed the Ritual because they were at sea (already?) and this must have been before all the Jaghut were wiped out otherwise they wouldn't have needed to become T'lan Imass As to when they met the Edur, well guess we dont know, although the Edur themselves appear to have been declining for a very long time, partly no doubt because of those wars.

How exactly? I think at the moment we aren't sure at all as to how and when the TTT appeared. There is certainly a possibility that they may have some Jaghut roots given Bellurdan's quote. The other possible link is height as Jaghut are definitely tall too, but other than that don't appear to be similar at all, although don't Trell have oversized teeth The four lungs possessed by TTT hasn't been mentioned for any other race, although the only ones we know for definite don't possess them are humans. It does seem likely that human ancestors the Imass only had two lungs as well.

Well that is a good question .. the Jaghut were apparently treated as slaves by the KCCM. well we don't know when the Jaghut embraced Omtose Phellack as their main tool, or if it has always been their warren. We know that the Imass are strongly linked to fire, but assume this was a reaction to the Jaghut ice, maybe it's the other way around and the Jaghut resorted to the cold to combat Imass use of fire. Hm maybe but it doesn't seem to have changed any other races. Yeah exactly - so he should know what he's talking about and the races and their development should be thought out, but most likely deliberately obscured.. it is SE after all

[Orfantal]

Whoops sorry Hettie you got there before me - I think CIV is civilisation

[Coldnight]

I don't think Kil may be the goddess of balance. Balance is a matter of Azath, and Azath being some kind of elemental force (like Elder Gods), does not seem to have any personification attached to itself.

[Onos]

Guess i havent accomplished a whole lot on the TTT side of things.

Non Ritual Imass + TTT + Time = Barghast
My attempted point was the non ritual imass mess the timelime assumptions that are sometimes made. Any time we see them we cant assume to know what time we are looking at since it could be way before ritual or way after.

But as to the TTT themselves?
Not a founding race, but at least sometime after the ritual they appear in numbers (again could even be a bit earlier) Also they had a big civilization somewhere sometime... yet we never hear of the TTT wars or whatever led to their destruction. Either that destruction happened in an out of the way place, or a long time ago, or no witnessed survived.

1) So either they evolved from we dont know what
2) They fell out of a rent somewhere
3) Perhaps created by Jaghut tyrants as soldiers or workers.

Suppose my other original point was i dont think Killy is TTT based cause at this time it was way too early for the TTT to be around.

[Midnight]

It seemed to be me that that the elder gods' elements were fairly complex and that the kind of basic nature element was a window into a larger sphere. For example, Mael, though god of the sea, seems to be tied fairly closely to Time and possibly even divination. Kilmandaros, if her element is earth, could be balance or justice because earth is created from a balance of natural forces and if one considers Nature to be the deciding point then what is Natural could be seen as just.

Also, seems likely to me that she is the mother of the Forkrul Assail (Though I am not sure if I like that idea ). I wonder if the other elder races have gods? Maybe Grizzin Farl or Sechul Lath could be the Jaghut forefathers? I imagine the KCCM didn't have any since they are mentioned as being opposed to the elder gods. Though I suppose they could be children of a rogue elder god...hehe maybe they are the Crippled God's children

[Folken]

Coldnight;110002 said:

I don't think Kil may be the goddess of balance. Balance is a matter of Azath, and Azath being some kind of elemental force (like Elder Gods), does not seem to have any personification attached to itself.

Azath isn't an elemental.

It is a vessel that holds the elementals and their power. The lost ones atleast

[Midnight]

The Forkrul Assail defintion of justice or peace seems to be death. If she is their goddess maybe she is death-aspected.

[Red_orbiT]

Don't think she's death aspected really.
They were talking about her children being lost. That could be it, instead of seeking justice they seek peace, by killing things.
And I can't imagine a death-goddess in the form of a giant monkey-thingey with teats. Hood would disagree I think...

[Midnight]

hehe she could be the wife Hood is looking for

The part about her children losing their way is interesting. Maybe she installed them on multiple worlds to serve as arbiters, to keep the balance.

[Ellestra]

Orfantal;109755 said:

I'm still not so convinced about the Eres - Imass - Humans route. I agree that evolution doesn't move in straight lines but the climate argument seems a red herring. Yes it was colder when the Imass were around but wasn't this down to the Jaghut defense against them and so not trait forming.

One of reasons Imass fought Jaghut was that by they extensive use of Omtose Phellack they made world colder and colder.
Jaghuts like cold.

[tiam]

Actually the Jaghut never used their warren to make the world colder because they like it cold. They did it as an act of defense against their Imass pursuers. They raised massive glaciers and this contributed to the cause of the Ritual. There was very few Imass young and likely the race was dying as there no food on the ice.

[Imperial Historian]

Quote

The four lungs possessed by TTT hasn't been mentioned for any other race,

Actually the KCCM, or short-tail that Karsa killed in the keep in the bonehunters was described as having four lungs and two proto lungs, more evidence in my mind to suggest that the toblakai were the results of Kccm genetic tinkering, the fact that without severe inbreeding the toblakai population lessens and loses many of its features like the tarthenal and the teblor, plus the fact it can breed with jaghut and imass suggest it is some kind of hybrid between the two with some KCCM tinkering thrown into the works.

Quote

Actually the Jaghut never used their warren to make the world colder because they like it cold. They did it as an act of defense against their Imass pursuers. They raised massive glaciers and this contributed to the cause of the Ritual. There was very few Imass young and likely the race was dying as there no food on the ice.

I'm not so sure, after imass attacks the Jaghut definitly did conciously direct there ice magic to defeat the imass, but i suspect that the jaghut's use of magic cooled the earth in any case without the concious desire to do so, the demise of the KCCM was accompanied by a cooling of the world and perhaps an ice age in any case initiated by the jaghut, and the world the imass emerged in has many features of a cold one, different I imagine from a warm world, where the lizardlike KCCM, and the eres who survived in warm jungles, originally came to prominence.

[tiam]

Yes they definitely tried to kill the Imass but its described atleast once as a sort of 'passive defence' against the Imass.

As to your thoughts on the TTT being created by the KCCM i have to say that makes perfect sense in my mind. The only reason i could really see for the KCCM/NR to make TTT is for slavery/servant reasons. Im fairly sure there were Imass in the time of the KCCM so your theory on them being created from the 2 makes sense. I actually thought something similar. They look Imass but the Jaghut give them their height. Although i thought this was simply due to breeding as im sure at some point the jaghut an Imass lived peacefully.

But your theory of the TTT being created actually answers alot of questions about why they were an elder race yet not one of the founding races. They seem to have had a much more advanced civilisation than the FA at least and the jaghut werent a race for cities i dont think. They were created as servants for the KCCM.

A very good thoery

[Midnight]

mmm so many good theories on this thread . With regards to Kilamandaros' element I thought of something else to support her being aspected to earth. Her name is similar to mount Kilimanjaro which means "Earth peg". Hehe very tenuous I know but maybe that was SE's inspiration.

As for the TTT being created...I think that's awesome. Could give new meaning to Karsa breaking out of his chains...he breaks the chains of his entire people. Does seem a little sci-fi though...

[tiam]

Yeh but it makes sense. The KCCM are stubborn (as in they will not die without Karsas help) and they see the Imass , an easily enslaved and manipulatable race. They see however that these (like humans in these books) are quite fragile compared to other races. So they add there own qualities. They make it bigger stronger and faster while adding some of the KCCM own qualities (4 lungs) therefore making them ideal. Just a thought

[tiam]

Tiam. Reread GotM. Reast remembers walking on a sort of marketplace with his mother. With lots of jaghut around him, He loses his mother and feels utterly helpless. On that point he gets really pissed and desides to be independant for the rest of his life. It kinda is a weird excuse to enslave thousands of imass... So there was atleast 1 city.
I still believe that the time of the jaghut was BEVORE the time of eres and KCCM.

Errr where did Raest come into this? I was on about the KCCM improving the Imass to make TTT which is just me adding my bit to IH theory. Raest wasnt mentioned at all. Also the time of the jaghut was definitely after the time of the KCCM as the KCCM enslaved the Jaghut. Also if you beleive that the jaghut came before the Eres (bearing in mind that the Eres 'was from a time when darkness was complete' or to that extent which means they were either MD first children or came quickly after) you must do a quick reread.

It goes KCCM-Jaghut-Imass

Thats chronologiclly and in terms of slavery. The FA kinda fit in beetween the jaghut and the KCCM i think. We know very little about them

[Dark Mac]

tiam;112834 said:

Also the time of the jaghut was definitely after the time of the KCCM as the KCCM enslaved the Jaghut.

Did they? I'm not so sure about this. I've always taken that to be a theory of the character who stated it (Silverfox?) rather than a fact. I can't imagine how the KCCM would've enslaved the Jaghut.

[tiam]

I actually thought it was Kallor who came up with this and he knows loads about the KCCM. Can you imagone the Jaghut enslaving the Imass? Maybe the KCCM did it first and the jaghut copied.

Dont forget apart from super strength the jaghut are quite mortal. YOu say you cant imagine the jaghut being enslaved becaue the only jaghut we see are the strongest. All jaghut are not mighty sorcerers or warriors. ALot of them are/were normal. Simply living. The survivors are likely the most skilled jaghut.