[Dark Mac]

Lord Baelish;109324 said:

Could the three dragons that fled be the 3 that are imprisoned in Shadow? They tried to seize Emurlahn and got smacked down by Rake, so it seems a pretty good link there to me.

Problem: do you really think ST and Cotillion wouldn't have noticed Rake Chaining three dragons in their warren? It seems like it would be...difficult to miss.

[philospher77]

Dark Mac;109376 said:

Problem: do you really think ST and Cotillion wouldn't have noticed Rake Chaining three dragons in their warren? It seems like it would be...difficult to miss.

I assume that Rake chained the dragons long before ST and Cot ascended.

[vaiski]

Re: Osserc & Rake

Okay so about the timing of their fight.. upon hearing that Osserc fought Rake and him saying 'Even so, I delayed him long enough-' Menandore presumes that it was to prevent Rake going after Scandabari.

So it has to be fairly soon after Scandabari threw Silchas into the Azath house. And even closer to the point when Gothos imprisoned Scabby's soul because Menandore wasn't aware of it (but she was aware of Silchas' fate).

And it'd seem logical that Kilmandaros did not take a detour when returning to the rent, where, as it turns out, Anomader was waiting.

So, to me it seems to be an error in the timeline.

[Arkmam]

philospher77;109377 said:

I assume that Rake chained the dragons long before ST and Cot ascended.

Yeah, but then it can't be the three dragons we see at the end of Deadhouse Gates, since they are flying around happily in the Azath.

[Aptorian]

I don't want to start an entirely new discussion in here... but.

Somehow I mixed Kilmandaros and "The child of indescribable terror" together in my head long ago, but I now see that they can't be related after reading this quote:

Quote

Midnight Tides, page 93
"...all of them. Elder gods. And Eleint. The Elder gods loosed the blood in their veins. The dragons spawned a child of indescribable terror, to seek out and hunt down Scabandari Bloodeye. Father Shadow was brought down. An Elder god named Kilmandaros shattered his skull. They then made for Bloodeye's spirit a prison of eternal pain, of agony beyond measure, to last until the Abyss itself is devoured."

. But that leads me to two new questions:

1: Who was it again the Child is thought to be? I can't believe it's the O-Dragon and none of the others I can think of fit.

2: Where was this Child during all this? From the prologue the bringing down of Scabandari seems almost solely on the shoulders of Kilmandaros... with a little help from Mael. But of course others could have been there in the start... but where did they go? And what happened to this child? Hunt I believe is ment as more than just the child being a bloodhound, I would think it also wanted a piece of bloodeye.

Edit: Oh and yes I know that Fear Sengars story is backwater edur history but... yada yada.

[vaiski]

Ohh quite right Hetan, I didn't remember the 'again' comment by Gothos. And Rake says it too..
?Where is Osserc?? the Elder Goddess asked. ?Mael informed me that he --?
?Was planning to get in my way again?

Now it makes (more) sense

[polishgenius]

Except, Rake seems to make it pretty clear that they hadn't fought, unless what he means is they did, but when Rake got past and left, Osserc went towards where Bloodeye was while Rake was entirely somewhere else. Or he was lying.
I can't remember the part with Ossercs comments particularly well, and the whole Menandore thing, but it's not inconcievable that it was a different fight, perhaps after the conversation - maybe they fought over Rakes plans about the throne?

[phart]

Also Rake shows no sign of being in a fight, while osserc is burned down one side of his face and looks generally bedraggled, i hope this is something intentional, as it's a huge and glaring error if not.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Why is everyone tearing themselves up over Rake and Osserc not fighting each other this one time? This prologue happened well over 300,000 years ago (Imass Ritual oldest dated event, at ~300,000 preBS, and this prologue was clearly long before that), and so there is a massive amount of time in which Rake and Osserc could later fight, and then Osserc go on to have the conversation with his daughters that we saw in MT.

I don't see an inconsistency here at all.

[vaiski]

Dolorous Menhir said:

so there is a massive amount of time in which Rake and Osserc could later fight, and then Osserc go on to have the conversation with his daughters that we saw in MT.

Perhaps, but what bothers me is that Menandore did not know that Scandabari had been defeated. Seeing as she knew what had happened to Silchas I figured she'd have known about Scabby too, unless it had happened very recently.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Oh, ok. I'm not really sure then.

It's still possible that Osserc could have fought Rake five minutes after the prologue ended, and then gone to meet his daughters. Just because we didn't see it happen here doesn't mean it wasn't about to.

[Dark Mac]

But Osserc also seems to think he stopped Rake from killing Scabby, so...

Quote

Midnight Tides, page 93
"...all of them. Elder gods. And Eleint. The Elder gods loosed the blood in their veins. The dragons spawned a child of indescribable terror, to seek out and hunt down Scabandari Bloodeye. Father Shadow was brought down. An Elder god named Kilmandaros shattered his skull. They then made for Bloodeye's spirit a prison of eternal pain, of agony beyond measure, to last until the Abyss itself is devoured."

So, couldn't the child be Icarium? And Icarium is also the Finnest? Icarium as a Finnest with Scabby inside would be pretty terrifying.

Not that I believe it, but it makes more sense for the child to be Iccy than anyone else.

[polishgenius]

But Icarium is the son of Gothos, not the spawn of a dragon. It could be some sort of arrangement though, and so far, he is the being others are most scared of.
The child of indescribable terror is interesting though, could it be someone else we've met? Or another new face?
Also, do we reckon this child helped out with bringing down Bloodeye? He was pretty battered by the time Kilmandaros took him out.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Finnests are objects, not people. Icarium is not the Finnest. He may well possess it, as I suggested above, but he is not it.

As for Icarium being the spawn of dragons - the child of indescribable terror - I do not believe that is true. Icarium may be a Jhag, and thus only half Jaghut, but I seriously doubt the other half is dragon. In fact, I would rule it out.

We don't even know if Icarium was born yet at the time of the prologue. We've got no idea how old he is.

Quote

They then made for Bloodeye's spirit a prison of eternal pain, of agony beyond measure, to last until the Abyss itself is devoured.

In what respect does Icarium satisfy this description?

polishgenius;109429 said:

Also, do we reckon this child helped out with bringing down Bloodeye? He was pretty battered by the time Kilmandaros took him out.

I was under the impression the "child" was spawned too late to deal with Scabby. And he was battered because Mael and Kilmandaros had just been subdued him, there's no need to introduce a third agent here, he just fought two Elder Gods and lost. Hence "battered".

[polishgenius]

Ah yes, I misread, it was Gothos arriving late, not Kilmandros.

Hold on, thinking... which child was it in MT that was Trull's? Kettle or the boy, my memory fails me? Considering the whole time thing, could it be that fast-growing kid? Iirc, though I could not rc >_>, dragons were involved.

[Folken]

or all this could just be made up Edur history no?

They changed almost everything else, why not all of this? There doesn't have to be a child of indescribable terror. The events as said by the Edur bare very little resemblence to what is shown in the prolouge. Kilmandaro fought him with Mael...there was child of terror that hunted him down.

[Dolorous Menhir]

polishgenius;109434 said:

Ah yes, I misread, it was Gothos arriving late, not Kilmandros.

Hold on, thinking... which child was it in MT that was Trull's? Kettle or the boy, my memory fails me? Considering the whole time thing, could it be that fast-growing kid? Iirc, though I could not rc >_>, dragons were involved.

Trull's child with the Eres is widely believed to be Kettle. Though this is not confirmed.

The fast growing kid, Rud Ellale, is the child of Udinaas by Menandore. He is a Soletaken, thus the extraordinary growth. He is also proof that the children of Soletaken Eleint (in this case Menandore) are Eleint themselves.