[phart]

I'm just so happy Rake is back, everyone always assumes they know what he is going to do, or that he is just a terror, he shows a sublety of mind which i find fascinating, though as someone pointed out when actually did he fight osserc?

Also he seems pretty confident that his brother will not hold a grudge agaisnt him, he still remains the most interesting character for me.

[tiam]

Tiam - the TT had ascendants, remember? Iron Bars killed them.
And now they seem to be getting a shiny new one.[/QUOTE]


Yeh but they werent really gods. I mean they were in the traditional sense (worshippers, power etc) but they were just 5 pure blooded Toblakai as far as i could see. Also there seems to be a corressponding EG/being (can osserc and Rake be counted as EGs) to each race. So having KIL being the EG of toblakai makes sense although i can see were the FA comes from with the joints. Just the god of the assail wouldnt be 15 foot wide and lets be honest she would make a brilliant god for a toblakai. Also as for her children the Toblakai still fit. I dont mean teblor because im sure thats far more recent i mean ancient TT losing their way from vast civilisation to tribal savagery. Because we know that the TT were a very old civilisation and from what we know id say they should be one of the four founding races rather than the jaghut or the FA beacuse the FA havent really done much for civilisation (maybe thats what KIL means by theyve lost their way) as from what weve seen.

Also KIL would have to mate with a Nacht to produce FA offspring .

Edit is the form KIL is in a soletaken form. I only say this because its likely that there is loads of EG round and they (like mael) got tired of existing so hid in the human realm. KIL being 15 foot wide and a lumbering monstrosity would find it difficult to hide.

[polishgenius]

Osserc, Rake, and Scabandri aren't EGs, or Gods at all, just Ascendants.
We didn't actually get anything about the Toblakai gods other than that they're really hard, and that they're prayed to to please never come back, so they're pretty badass.

Having said that, why are we so determined to assign Kilimandaros to a race? I don't recall any of the other EGs being specifically race aspected, or am I remembering wrong?

[Red_orbiT]

I don't think the soldiers where grey swords... it's all wrong with the timeframe... shouldn't they be besieged in capustan about at this time? Or still trying to assemble recruits after being mangled?
How could they land 500000 soldiers two years before the tiste edur took lether?

Also:
"Pale-skinned, hair the colour of straw or red as rust. Eyes of blue or grey. And … so many women."
Pale skinned? All of them having rust-red or straw colored hair?

That sounds like Tiste Liosan to me.

[Murrin]

Red_orbiT;109288 said:

I don't think the soldiers where grey swords... it's all wrong with the timeframe... shouldn't they be besieged in capustan about at this time? Or still trying to assemble recruits after being mangled?
How could they land 500000 soldiers two years before the tiste edur took lether?

Also:
"Pale-skinned, hair the colour of straw or red as rust. Eyes of blue or grey. And ? so many women."
Pale skinned? All of them having rust-red or straw colored hair?

That sounds like Tiste Liosan to me.

The description matches that of the Grey Helms--the Perish--not the Grey Swords. And we have prior knowledge of the Perish being aware of things going on years in advance of them happening. They knew Tavore's army would appear and spent two years preparing. It's not inconceivable that they sent an army to Lether who were meant to hide until a particular time. And the wolves (and wolf-head sigils) are a dead giveaway.

[polishgenius]

If it were Liosan, I think he'd note their resemblance to Edur.

[Dark Mac]

polishgenius;109291 said:

If it were Liosan, I think he'd note their resemblance to Edur.

Unless I'm blind (and I probably am) he doesn't even mention the Edur when listing the peoples native to Lether, so it's possible he doesn't know who the Edur are yet.

[Morgoth]

why is it assumed that the people appearing in canoes and the soldiers appearing four years later are the same?

First of all, we know the Perish have very advanced ships for the times, so it would be pretty silly for them to travel in canoes, furthermore, would they not have mentioned this in tBH? I mean, we're talking a huge number of soldiers here, a much higher number than what they put at Tavore's service.

To me, it would seem as if the people who were killed two years after the edur invasion are either grey helms or grey swords, both could be there if we're to follow the timeline I believe. Though, ofc here I may be wrong.

The people who arrived in the canoes could be barghast, but then not belonging to the barghast we met in MoI as they had lost pretty much all their connection with the sea and indeed, could possibly field that number during the early pages of MoI, but hardly at the end. Not to mention that the timeline does not match here.

There are ofc many races that these vessels could belong to, but I doubt it is any of the more modern. I personaly would rule out anything human, though ofc, I might be wrong. The human nations we've come across of a size necessary to be able to launch such an invasion/imigration should be able to use much more advanced and efficient ships.

Seguleh perhaps? The numbers seem wrong though, and I very much doubt that such a huge number of seguleh could arrive anywhere without killing enough people to be noticed.

There's too few FA left I would think.

TT? Perhaps, as they were at one point sea farers with the Barghast which would explain the use of canoes. Indeed, considering their size, the number of soldiers could be susbtantialy reduced making them perhaps more able to hide. We do not, after all, know whether any sizable colonies of TT excist on any of the continents we've yet to visite so it could be possible to muster such a number from somewhere. At the same time, this bleeds warren long way I think, which possibly rules out the TT..

Could also be edur, though then I assume we'd have heard of it in MT.

The other two tiste races would probably just use their respective warrens to travel though it is possible that the boats arrived from a warren of some kind. someone fleeing assail? That's a shot in the dark I know, but as we know there's a war there and I'm pretty sure whomever arrived with the boats did not come from one of the continents we've visited so far, Assail seems as likely -if not more so- as any. The Jheck we get a verbal glimps of in BF? Lol, at this point it seems I'm just listing names of primitive species we know little about. No, atm I think I'll stick to my TT theory until Kallor or the released book proves me wrong

As to Kilsomethingsomething, her multi jointed body and martial aspect would indeed hint at her children being FA, not TT who after all do not more than the typical amount of joints. Damn hippies.

Great prologue though. The guy in the scale mask is not Reese, just so that's clear for everyone

[philospher77]

Really wild thought... could the canoes belong to whoever built the huge wall in the Nascent?

And as to when Osserc and Rake fought... did Osserc actually say he fought Rake, or is that just an assumption other people made when they saw him all beaten up? And even if he did say it, could he have been lying?

[Morgoth]

I doubt Osric was lying.. Does not seem to fit his character.. I dunno, though perhaps they cooked up some scheme of their own.. It would seem as if this is an error, but at the same time, this is not something I would think SE would get wrong.. In the end, I trust there's some intricate plot twist here, as always

As to the ones who built the wall within the nascent, there was seemingly no oceans on that world and so canoes would be somewhat redundant I'd think.

[philospher77]

Morgoth;109309 said:

I doubt Osric was lying.. Does not seem to fit his character.. I dunno, though perhaps they cooked up some scheme of their own.. It would seem as if this is an error, but at the same time, this is not something I would think SE would get wrong.. In the end, I trust there's some intricate plot twist here, as always

As to the ones who built the wall within the nascent, there was seemingly no oceans on that world and so canoes would be somewhat redundant I'd think.

Canoes are used on rivers and lakes as well. So, if they had water somewhere, they might have had canoes. However, it's mostly that I am just wondering what happened to the people who built the wall. Which, given what we have seen of it, would probably put the builders in the actual boat stage instead of canoes anyway.

[Morgoth]

a single river diverted onto the land flooded the entire warren... That would imply there being very little water to begin with, no? Not to mention that we're talking about a large amount of boats, implying a sea faring nation, something the inhabitants of the nascent obviously were not

When that is said, such a discussion is really quite pointless as the nascent was flooded more or less two years after the discovery of the canoes. Surely, such a mass exodous/invasion would not have been done prior to the dooming of that realm?

[tiam]

polishgenius;109287 said:

Osserc, Rake, and Scabandri aren't EGs, or Gods at all, just Ascendants.
We didn't actually get anything about the Toblakai gods other than that they're really hard, and that they're prayed to to please never come back, so they're pretty badass.

Having said that, why are we so determined to assign Kilimandaros to a race? I don't recall any of the other EGs being specifically race aspected, or am I remembering wrong?

So Osserc isnt the god of the liosan? Im sure he is. Reluctant maybe and he may refuse it but he is. Ruin would have accepted Godhood for the Andii and Scabby was the god of the Edur or a while i think. The seragahl were likely just pure blooded therefore far more powerful than any thing weve seen in TT.

Also can we count Osserc as an EG? I know (or have read) that some members consider hm to be. But in that case so is Rake as he was the first thing ever created (if we discount Ossercs comment about the first children of MD not being Andii.)

[Lister of Smeg]

Could the three dragons that fled be the 3 that are imprisoned in Shadow? They tried to seize Emurlahn and got smacked down by Rake, so it seems a pretty good link there to me.

Edit: Never mind. Just found the same speculation in the Dragons thread.

A very good, very interesting (ie. confusing) prologue. Great to see Kilmandaros at last and to see Rake again. I hope he plays a role in the main part of the book as well.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Osserc is numbered among the Elder Gods in GotM. Whether you consider that proof or not depends on how easily you dismiss something as a GotMism.

[Folken]

Ossrec is also called an Elder God in Midnight Tides as well by Gothos. However, that does not make him an Elemental force as most of the others probably are. So its not a Gotmism.

polishgenius;109287 said:

Osserc, Rake, and Scabandri aren't EGs, or Gods at all, just Ascendants.

Okay I will explain this once again.


God = Ascendant
Ascendant not = God

One Ascendant maybe a God to one group of people or race but not to another because of worship.

Ossrec is the God of the Liason, because they worship him. He is considered an elder god on Wu, because he was worshiped along with the rest of them as Lord of the Skies.

Anomander Rake is not a God to the Andii, because they do not worship him. Apart from the Bluerose, whom Rake does not acknowledge, he is not worshiped by anyone.

Bloodeye, is simply the God of the Edur, nothing more. They worship him as Father Shadow.

[Murrin]

Morgoth;109315 said:

a single river diverted onto the land flooded the entire warren... That would imply there being very little water to begin with, no?

The river that was diverted was supposed to be big. I mean, as in continent-spanning. An entire realm that was a river. The amount of water in the place it was diverted to is kind of irrelevant in those circumstances.

[Hume]

Lol..
Morgoth You kinda said what I alrady said so far..
Except the Speculation that TT could have come in the canoes. Kinda like that Idea. And I would think that Segulah Are Human.

The thing with the fight that Osserc says he has with Rake and how Rake didnt fight him.
I personally Got the feeling that the time at which Kilamandaros and Mael took down Scabby was a complete different time to Udinaas' vision. Both way in the Past of course but still different times none the less..

[Folken]

Yup been thinking about that myself.

Perhaps there might have been a secondary battle and the Andii were out to get revenge on the Edur? Though that contradicts Rake's comment about not wanting to avenge his brother, but perhaps that was specific to just the battle with Bloodeye. And the Andii people might have been keen to lay a smack down on the Edur's?

But it still goes against the comments made by Osserc, about slowing him down enough? Or am I making things up right now from memory?

[Wry]

Hmmm... maybe it's the other edur who came in the canoes? you know, the barbaric ones that Trull gets shorn for defending? they had dealings with the moranth at the time when they were barghast sea-farers, tis possible that there was a crossover of technology...