[polishgenius]

That's the kid. He's obviously going to be important, though I need to reread MT before I make up any proper theory, but where there time travel shenanigans involved with Menandore and Udinaas? Because if there were, and Menandore didn't know Bloodeye was dead, it could be him... *grasping at straws*

[philospher77]

Just some more idle comments from me, about the child of indescribable terror. The exact wording is: "The dragons spawned a child of indescribable terror." While I would agree that generally this would point to a dragon's offspring, it is possible that "spawned" is being used figuratively, like when people talk about disastors spawning a wave of looting. So, if Icarium had been involved in the fighting, it is possible that something that the dragons did in the fight caused the condition that he is in, which could result in him being described as a child of indescribable terror, especially if he had been young at the time. I admit that it's a bit of a stretch, but it is in the realm of possibility for me.

On the other hand, wasn't Icarium somehow involved with the sundering of KE? Or was it just the Azath? I am remembering something about "damaging a warren" being the cause of his memory problems, but I don't remember which warren it was.

[Dolorous Menhir]

That's because it was never specified what warren it was. People assume it was a fragment of the already sundered KE, but that is the only credible candidate simply because we haven't been informed of other possible warrens.

It's by no means confirmed that Icarium wounded, and was wounded in turn, by a fragment of KE.

polishgenius;109487 said:

That's the kid. He's obviously going to be important, though I need to reread MT before I make up any proper theory, but where there time travel shenanigans involved with Menandore and Udinaas? Because if there were, and Menandore didn't know Bloodeye was dead, it could be him... *grasping at straws*

There was no time travel. The child says he is only a matter of weeks old, though he appears much older. That's due to his extraordinarily accelerated growth as a Soletaken. The actual timeline of his conception and birth seems reasonable - but it has just occured to me, what about the nine months for a pregnancy! If Rud was born right after he was conceived then everything is all right timeline wise, no need to invoke time travel - but we've been ignoring pregnancy time here...can we assume a much abbreviated pregnancy for a Soletaken grandson of Osric?

[polishgenius]

It can't have been Icarium who shattered KE, because Gothos was in an Azath when Icarium lost it big time. There might have been a fragment involved, but not the original wounding.
Also, was it confirmed before now that the shattering of KE and the betrayal of Ruin happened at the same time?

[Coldnight]

I'm pretty sure it might be actually Icarium who shattered KE!

Look at the quotations.

Conversation between Phyrlis and Cynnigig from HoC:

Quote

'Foolish, unmindful T'lan Imass, to drive a spear into the grounds of an Azath House.'
'What do they know about houses Cynnigig? Creatures of caves and hide tents. Besides, it was already dying and had been for years. Fatally wounded. Oh, Icarium was on his knees by the time he finally delivered the mortal blow, raving with madness. And had not his Toblakai companion taken his oportunity to strike him anconscious...'
'He would have freed his father'
[...]
'I do appreciate the irony, by the way - Icarium's father had no desire to be saved. And so the house died, weakning the fabric...'
'Sufficiently for the warren to bo torn apart.'

Taralack Veed:

Quote

'Once, long ago, you were driven by the need to free your father, who had been taken by the House of Azath. Faced with terrible failure, a deeper, deadlier force was born - your rage. You shattered a wounded warren, and you destroyed an Azath, releasing into the world a host of demonic creatures... blah, blah...'
'The most bitter irony is this: your father sought no release. He had elected, of his own will, to become a guardian of an Azath House, and he may be remains so to this day.'

It matches the theory stated by Wry and me in another thread. Gothos might have 'planted' the finnest with Scabby's soul to grow an Azath House (The House of Shadow?), and became the Guardian od this House. Then, probably many years later, Icarium came and killed the House and by doing this (or doing something else by the way) shattered KE finally... or maybe not finally, because as one of the dragons said:

Quote

'The Sundering continues to this day, and as for the forces that conspired to trigger the dread event, those were many and varied.'

...so Scabby started the process by spilling draconean blood, Icarium might have sort of finished. Besides, how many wounded and shattered warrens, apart from KE, do we have floating around? If it's not KE, what is it? Any fragment of it doesn't make sense for me.

[Hume]

Icarium helped Shatter the warren more he wasnt the Sole cause of it.

Like you got in your post "You shattered a wounded warren" ..
The warren was already wounded and Icarium then shattered it.

I could be going out on a limb here but was the one Icarium shattered completely different to KE ?

[Coldnight]

HUME said:

Icarium helped Shatter the warren more he wasnt the Sole cause of it.

Like you got in your post "You shattered a wounded warren" ..
The warren was already wounded and Icarium then shattered it.

Yes, that's exactly, what I wanted to say. He shattered it more, and I think there was some finality to this.

HUME said:

I could be going out on a limb here but was the one Icarium shattered completely different to KE ?

Wouldn't we know if there were another shattered warren? For sure, KE was the first one, as Kilmandaros said: ?The precedent is ? unwelcome. You go bury your head in the sands again, Mael, but I warn you, the death of one realm is a promise to every other realm.? Anyway, I still stick to my theory.

[Hume]

I dont mean the shattering of another warren I mean the complete destruction cant for the love of life remember where I may read it though :Erm:

[Dark Mac]

IMO, Sundering is not the same as Shattering. Sundering is just splitting the warren up into multiple usable parts. Shattering is actually dealing major damage to the warren, major enough to make it unusable. So, it's my belief that Icarium shattered a single piece of Emurlahn, rather than the entire thing.

[Lord of Salvation]

but if it was only wounded to begin with then he must have only destroyed a fragment? As in shattering, creating multiple fragments, not the same as his sundering of that piece.

[Coldnight]

In the prologue there still was a realm called Kurald Emurlahn. Yes, it was cracky and some bits were falling apart, but it existed. Kil and Rake closed the wound, got rid of intruders and maybe done some other mending, so it was supposed to die slowly (fade?), not burst into many usable pieces. So if it's like Darc Mac said, and Icarium shattered the silngle piece of KE, I say it was the main one.

Hetan said:

I doubt that Gothos planted the Finnest to grow a house... seems a bit strange that he would capture the soul in a Finnest if he's then going to create an Azath house from it.

Why not? As an example of Reast shows, there's no better protection for the finnest than a newly grown Azath House . Besides, House that would grow on Scabandari would be probably shadow-aspected, and I really need this fact to have connection between killing an Azath and shattering a warren (nothing else comes my mind). There's also hole in the whole theory - I have no idea what causes such torment for poor Scabby's soul.

[phart]

Dolorous Menhir;109423 said:

Why is everyone tearing themselves up over Rake and Osserc not fighting each other this one time? This prologue happened well over 300,000 years ago (Imass Ritual oldest dated event, at ~300,000 preBS, and this prologue was clearly long before that), and so there is a massive amount of time in which Rake and Osserc could later fight, and then Osserc go on to have the conversation with his daughters that we saw in MT.

I don't see an inconsistency here at all.

Well SE is such a good writer, so we hold him maybe unfairly to high standards.

However what was the point in MT of showing Osserc and Rake fighting, or rather the after effects in the prologue and the slaves flashback, when then it appears the fight didn't happen, as rake never went where Osserc thought he would be, cause god knows how long it takes to flush KE, so Osserc would have been waiting on Rake, but whats the point of fighting then, he was only to stand in his way so that Mael etc could deal with Scabby, so if he was already out of the way there would be no reason to fight.

[Dolorous Menhir]

When Osserc and his daughters spoke it was clear that his fighting with Rake was not an isolated occurence. Just because he did not fight Rake in the prologue, ON THIS SINGLE OCCASION, does not mean the post-fight sequence in MT is some gross mistake on the authors part.

As I said above, Rake and Osserc could have fought five minutes after the prologue ended, or the next day, and that would be totally consistent with the MT passage.

[Abyss]

Noting how immensely cool it is to have the prologue posted here.

- Abyss, dies of happiness daily.

[Morgoth]

Dolorous Menhir;109676 said:

When Osserc and his daughters spoke it was clear that his fighting with Rake was not an isolated occurence. Just because he did not fight Rake in the prologue, ON THIS SINGLE OCCASION, does not mean the post-fight sequence in MT is some gross mistake on the authors part.

As I said above, Rake and Osserc could have fought five minutes after the prologue ended, or the next day, and that would be totally consistent with the MT passage.

But as mentioned before, the two daughters seemed not to know that scabby had been killed which implies it had yet to happen or it had just happened as I'm pretty certain something like the murder of such a powerfull and influential ascendant is something that gets known pretty damn quickly.

[Onos]

What do Azath's do? Well to my understanding they clean up things of power that are causing a mess of things. What place is more messed up than KE? None to my knowledge. So i would assume having an Azath there would be a good thing to at least try to start the healing process. So IMO using the Scabby Finnest to start a house wouldnt be too crazy.

A question would be why would Gothos do this? That is less clear, unless he eventually saw how the winds were blowing and wanted a nice safe place to hang out for a long while. What place is safer than an Azath for a Jaghut? None other that being frozen in the middle of a glacier.

Either way still leaves open to what happened to the finnest after that... destroyed? Still with Gothos? With Iccarium in some strange manner? Loose upon the earth somewhere?

Gothos doesnt strike me as an idiot... just need to start thinking like a Jaghut...

Dumb Question?: Which Azath was destroyed by Iccarium? Do we know where it was located?

[Dolorous Menhir]

I can't get to the books just now, so I'm not sure which scenario it is. Did

a) the daughters and Osserc simply not mention Scabby's demise, or act as if it hadn't happened, suggesting it had not yet occured

or was it

Osserc told the daughters Scabby was dead and it was news to them, suggesting it was shortly after the prologue?

If it was (a), then why can't the fight and conversation witnessed by Udinaas not have occured before the RG prologue.

And if it was (, then why can't we still argue that Rake and Osserc did eventually meet and fight in the general timescale of the prologue, just not during it.

edit:

Onos;109717 said:

Dumb Question?: Which Azath was destroyed by Iccarium? Do we know where it was located?

It was the destroyed Azath on the Jhag Odhan in Seven Cities, where the Jaghut-in-the-tree whose name escapes me right now lives. Karsa was taken there by Cyniggig, the Jaghut with the broken back, during his quest for a horse in HoC.

Just had a further idea. Expanding on the "Gothos founds Azath House with Scabby Finnest" idea, perhaps it was the Azath House that Icarium later destroyed, and Icarium somehow carries a remnant of it with him. Though that seems tenuous to me as I write it, but Gothos was residing in that Azath at the time of the attack (hence his son's effort to free him from it, violently), and so that lends credence to the Finnest being there/used to found it.