[philospher77]

Did the K'Chain Che'Malle have gods, and what were they like? There's no mention of any gods, but we don't get to see all that much of them, so it's possible that they had a thriving religious life. I'm thinking that they were very bloody gods, based on what we see of K'Chain Che'Malle family structure and society.

[Whelp]

Imho, each KCCM Matron was a god to her brood - and they did not need any other entities.

[Aptorian]

I could imagine them worshipping Chaos for some reason.

That said I dobt they had any religious beliefs left, being as highly evolved technology wise. They seem to have surpassed our real life sciences. Also they were able to keep the elder gods out of the malaz world... so they don't seem to have much love for gods.

And as whelp wrote, the Matron would probably be the focus of all the K'chain's adoration... I imagine some huge fat lizard lying on nice pillows, being faned and fed with little Imass children dipped in guachamole

[Thelomen Toblakai]

Nice description Apt.

Yeh I doubt they would have Gods because there so technalogically advanced and i can't really see them doing the whole "worship" thing. I agree with Apt and Whelp and think they would probably just look at the Matron as God and adore her and praise her.

How many different Matrons would there be among the whole species? Cause if they were looked at like Gods it could lead to some pretty bloody fighting.

"Lets go see Matron" (loving look in the eyes)

[Whelp]

Apt said:

I could imagine them worshipping Chaos for some reason.

That said I dobt they had any religious beliefs left, being as highly evolved technology wise. They seem to have surpassed our real life sciences. Also they were able to keep the elder gods out of the malaz world... so they don't seem to have much love for gods.

Hmm, maybe you are on to something - I seem to remember the KCNR being described as more technical, more order-related. If the ordinary KCCMs were worshipping Chaos in any form, that might have been an additional reason for their civil war.

[Abyss]

Indeed, the Matrons seem to be god-like as far as the KC are concerned. The KN apparently disagree, of course.

As they are hive-mind-lizards and technologists, KC gods seem unlikely. Plus maybe beings that were powerful enough to keep the Elder gods off their own world don't need to believe in something more powerful than themselves.

- Abyss, wants some KC boots and a matching briefcase.

[philospher77]

Abyss said:

Indeed, the Matrons seem to be god-like as far as the KC are concerned. The KN apparently disagree, of course.

As they are hive-mind-lizards and technologists, KC gods seem unlikely. Plus maybe beings that were powerful enough to keep the Elder gods off their own world don't need to believe in something more powerful than themselves.

I missed the bit about them keeping the Elder gods off their own world. This is very confusing to me, since it seems that the Elder Gods are natural forces incarnate, which would exist everywhere that those forces do. For example, Mael is the sea, so where there are seas, there should be a Mael counterpart. Can someone point me to the references?

And I find it a bit hard to think of a race as powerful as the KC not being involved with gods. It's one thing to think that in our world, where religion is a matter of faith. But there are gods wandering around the Malazan world, actual physical entities that you can touch and see. And these entities have power. Whichever Matron decided to find an ally among them now has more power than the ones that didn't. They might not worship, but I can't see them passing up the power.

[Abyss]

philospher77 said:

I missed the bit about them keeping the Elder gods off their own world. This is very confusing to me, since it seems that the Elder Gods are natural forces incarnate, which would exist everywhere that those forces do. For example, Mael is the sea, so where there are seas, there should be a Mael counterpart. Can someone point me to the references?

*Fires up the VAISKI - SIGNAL!!!!!*
I don't remember the exact quote, i'm afraid. I think it was in MoI or HoC.
Note that by the time Mael appears in the MT prologue, the KC are in full near-extinction between the KN revolt and the Tiste invasion.

The Jaghut were apparently always on the world but were enslaved by the KC. Except for 7C where the Deragoth kept the KC away.

But i would guess that a suitably powerful force, such as the Matrons, would be able to bar the elemental forces of the EGs from their world.

And so it follows that if you're more powerful than gods, you don't need your own gods. Or allies among them. It seems they had slaves, and these slaves were Jaghut, who may hit power levels comparable to gods.

- Abyss, figures the Jaghut made great bartender-slaves, what with the instant ice maker thing.

[vaiski]

MoI (PB, p.592):

(Kallor speaking)
'The beasts appear to be reptilian, capable of breeding their own kind to specific talents. Those the Tiste Andii called K’ell Hunters, for example, were born as warriors. Undead versions are in the valley below, yes? They had no hands, but swords in their stead, somehow melded to the very bones of their forearms. The K’Chain Che’Malle were matriarchal, matrilineal. As a population of bees have their queen, so too these beasts. She is the breeder, the mother of every child. And within this Matron resided the sorcerous capacity of her entire family. Power to beggar the gods of today. Power to keep the Elder Gods from coming to this world, and were it not for the self destruction of the K’Chain Che’Malle, they would rule unchallenged to this day.’

[Murrin]

Considering it from an alternate perspective, it makes sense. If the gods are in many ways dependant on belief, then a world in which the dominant species is one which is purely scientific and rational--and whose level of technology is such that they understand all natural processes--would have no place for gods.

[Dark Mac]

Of course, Kallor is hardly the most trustworthy of sources. The EGs existed before the KCCM, so how could they be barred from coming to Wu? Maybe they left and then the KCCM didn't let them come back? The Tiste armies are still able to defeat the KCCM Matrons, so I doubt that they're really more powerful than the EGs...perhaps keeping them away is easier than defeating them.

[JAGHUT JIM]

Are the Elder Gods physical extensions of the elements or are they beings that managed to tap into and control the basic elements, thus ascending and becoming gods in their own right? Always wondered about them cuz there are a few references to them being young compared to other beings.

[Aptorian]

Here's a question? who is this Vaiski?

This is the second, right to the bone, comment from Vaiski. I'm a relatively new member to this forum so I have no idea who Vaiski is… but, I’m impressed.

I'm now going to speculate that either Vaiski is a part of Abyss personality. "The Abyss" being a reference to depths of the human psyche, the Id..Vaiski must then be he superior thought-processes above the normal though process.

Or… Vaiski is just a normal person which is just boring...

hmm... is Vaiski... Edgewalker... ah, the plot thickens. I see a E-entertainment special coming up.

[Kage-za]

Murrin said:

Considering it from an alternate perspective, it makes sense. If the gods are in many ways dependant on belief, then a world in which the dominant species is one which is purely scientific and rational--and whose level of technology is such that they understand all natural processes--would have no place for gods.

Well put. There has been criticism leveled at SE about how myriad aspects of human technology have developed too slowly in Wu. The presence of magic is often cited as the reason for this (for ex: who needs guns when the mages can do all the work). But it is only a short leap from there to suggest that the opposite premise is true: that the development of magic (and the active influence of gods) is thwarted by technology. The antithetical relationship between magic/religious/supernatural vs. science/technology is a pretty standard theme in fantasy and throughout human history.

If EGs are elemental forces, you could speculate that they are the imposition of order on the elements. The order-aspected KCN would accomplish the same thing with technology-which may be inimical to the continued existence of the
gods. I don't know if we have any evidence that this holds true for younger gods (Trake comes to mind as a new god set to oppose the KC...reawakened for godhood by none other than K'rul...)

Anyways, assuming that any of what I just wrote is true, if I was at war with the EGs and wanted to kill or drive them off, I would call in the KCN in their floating citadels; unleashing a whole warren full of them against the EGs would be a pretty good attack.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Dark Mac said:

Of course, Kallor is hardly the most trustworthy of sources. The EGs existed before the KCCM, so how could they be barred from coming to Wu? Maybe they left and then the KCCM didn't let them come back? The Tiste armies are still able to defeat the KCCM Matrons, so I doubt that they're really more powerful than the EGs...perhaps keeping them away is easier than defeating them.

The Tiste defeated the remnant of a KCCM civilisation already weakened by internal strife. The outcome of that battle is in no way a guide to the strength of the KCCM at their peak.

As for your first question, it's simple. The KCCM invaded from another realm and forced the Elder Gods out. Just as the Tiste later did to them.

[fan_83]

Apt said:

Here's a question? who is this Vaiski?

This is the second, right to the bone, comment from Vaiski. I'm a relatively new member to this forum so I have no idea who Vaiski is? but, I?m impressed.

I'm now going to speculate that either Vaiski is a part of Abyss personality. "The Abyss" being a reference to depths of the human psyche, the Id..Vaiski must then be he superior thought-processes above the normal though process.

Or? Vaiski is just a normal person which is just boring...

hmm... is Vaiski... Edgewalker... ah, the plot thickens. I see a E-entertainment special coming up.

beats apt with a stick .. how dare you question the great Vaiski who has memorised all of SE's work down to teh page numbers... hes the almighty Vaiski with the infalliable memory that provides quotes to those who needs it..

The Abyss is our most beloved funny cat whose quote brings a smile to everyones face..

i would suggest you do a search for the posts by Vaiski and AByss to see what i am talking about

[Shayed]

the KCCM are a technological advanced race, but isn't there also a reference somewhere to a KCCM warren? I can't remember the name of that particular warren though...

[Dolorous Menhir]

Kaschan - at least that was the Edur name for it. That may just be a corruption of "K'Chain" though.

[Abyss]

In TB, QB suggests that the Imperial Warren might have been the KC warren at some point. Not sure if this counters the theory that Krul created the Imperial Warren to shelter the continent Kallor blasted down to ashes. Or maybe Krul used something that was already there...

- Abyss, suspicious mind.