[SiriusL]

I'm rereading MoI, and I just got through the part where Onearm and WJ discuss the Empire's long-term plans (or, more precisely, don't discuss them) and Laseen (sorry, no page numbers at present). I want to post it here becuase there are related points in HoC. Forgive me if this is all answered post-HoC or in NoK.

From this passage in MoI, it's somewhat hard to tell if K&D were complicit in their own assassinations, or just took advantage of them to ascend. It is apparent that Dujek and WJ still support the Empress, and that the Empire's long-term plans include some contingencies about Shadowthrone and Cotillion.

First, we hear that Laseen inverted the command structure in order that "the right people would be on the ground when Shadowthrone and Cotillion make their move." Right away, this shows that Laseen, DO and WJ are fully aware of the ascensions, and are aware that the two are planning something important. It's hard to tell here if this means that the Empire and Shadowthrone are in league, or are at odds. From The Rope's comments to Lostara in HoC, you would think that he, at least, is trying to further the interests of the Empire. Could there be a rift between him and Ammanas?

Later in the MoI passage, Dujek mentions that he Emperor "wasn't quite as dead as we would have liked," and WJ responds by saying that Shadowthrone is "still insane." These don't sound like the comments of men in league Shadowthrone, nor do the comments about ST getting revenge on Laseen by ordering the T'lan Imass into Aren.

There's also the whole issue of the Old Guard faking its death (as WJ suggested he might do). Did the all those folks disappear because they didn't support Laseen's usurpation of the Empire, or because it is in the interest of the Empire's long-term goals that they disassociate themselves from current affairs? Does Admiral Nok's exposition on this subject in HoC shed any light here?

Finally, what are these long-term goals? At first I thought they involved working against the Crippled God, but Dujek's comments argue against that theory. Both men do suggest that they've been expecting the CG to make a move, so you'd think it would be in their interest to plan for it. So the plans do include some work with or against Shadowthrone. Well, what's his plan?

[Lord of Salvation]

If you remember in HoC Cotillion was content with the Assassination against him by the hands of Surly. It furthered his goals.

We get mixed messages concerning the Shadow realm from GotM and later books. GotM places Cotillion and Ammanas in direct conflict with the Malazan empire to get back at Laseen. But in later books they dont begrudge her as much because they have bigger problems on their hands. Such as protecting their realm and first throne.

And also the rift question was answered as well. Cotillion says the two arent as close as Dancer and Kell were. They each have their own goals and work separately on them. Very rarely are they in tandem with one another.

And also your question to the old guard was answered in either MoI or in HoC, I think HoC. It is said that Urko and Crust fled solely because they were Dal Honese or what ever that race is. They were misrepresented by one of their own, Surly, who turned out to be roalty or something. They couldnt cope with the deceit and backstabbing.

[Dinivan]

What's the plan? Hell, there's no real way to know what Kel/Amanas/ST real plans...

Some notes i'd like to make...
The whole old guard business is screwed - some people somewhere pointed out that Nok's account in HoC is not entirely consistent and thus not 100% reliable.

As Crokus points out in HoC it would be certainly impossible for ST to become a god and King of the Shadow realm and keeping control of the Malazan Empire. So they faked the assassination, whether arranged with Laseen or not she would know sometime that she messed it up. (i tend to the notion that she was in the plan - maybe not in ST's great master plan, but she probably knows parts of it) The assassination was 'playacting' to 'officially' cut ST from the Malazan Empire.

ST's revenge on the Empire and Laseens reaction to that was necessary to keep the story just because everyone in the game would expect that ST starts to revenge for beeing tried to killed and chucked from the throne as natural reaction. (Sooner or later they all would have found out that ST is Kel anyway.)
"Make their move" doesn't necessarily mean their 'faked' revenge...maybe something totally different.

Then the Cot and ST not working together thingy... You really believe that? I mean, they travelled strange realms, Azath, only SE knows what else, forged an empire together, ascended together, rule a realm together - and now they don't work together?
It may seem so (outward appearance is very important) but maybe (I strongly believe in this) their seemingly unrelated actions will tie together in the end and thus surprising everybody by the width of their actions...

my main point being...we won't know till the very end of the series. I personally hope for something dramatic toppling the world - but it's hard to guess anything about their moves and the motives behind it. Like it is with Kruppe, just for instance.

[Lord of Salvation]

Dinivan said:

Then the Cot and ST not working together thingy... You really believe that? I mean, they travelled strange realms, Azath, only SE knows what else, forged an empire together, ascended together, rule a realm together - and now they don't work together?
It may seem so (outward appearance is very important) but maybe (I strongly believe in this) their seemingly unrelated actions will tie together in the end and thus surprising everybody by the width of their actions...

Of course I believe their plans are cohesive and will ultimately tie together.

But they have their own PERSONAL goals, such as Cotillion wanting to destroy the so perceived "fake" Talons, because they were Dancer's creation and he doenst want their legacy or memory tainted under someone unfit to lead them.

We do believe them to be "good" guys correct. I mean of course they are aiming to gain as much power as they can, and protect that power they have gained thus far. But, in the end they will help "save" the world by playing a pivitoal role against the insurgency of the CG's proxies, and helping others defeat those underlings in their quest for world destruction and domination.

[tiam]

well i consider Cotillion a good guy but as of yet we dont see enough of St to know his motives.

[Gem Windcaster]

* I got the impression that Laseen doesn't know about the ascensions. It was implicated somewhere, but I don't remember where exactly (sorry).
* ST and Cotillon may be good guys, and they may not. I'm not sure.
* It is clear though, that what they plan is bigger and more important than the throne of the Malazan empire - although Laseen probably plays a important part in their plans.

[SiriusL]

I think Cotillion is being set up as a "good guy", but it may be a red herring. Certainly HoC makes him seem friendly enough (as friendly as a guy can be who wields a rope like a machine gun), and implies that his motives are slightly different that ST's. But it all may be a big red herring.

The other thing SE's tried to do is make us think ST is insane. Look at his dialogue at any given time, and compare it to Iskaral Pust--similar (as of HoC) enough that I wondered if Pust actually ST, himself!

I'll have to reread the Old Guard sections--I thought it was a little inconsistent between Nok and Gesler/Stormy, but maybe not.

[Called-by-the-Voices]

It's quite confusing, really... Do Laseen and C&St work together in the end, or not? What are their plans?
It was pointed out before (in one of the SE interviews) that the Empire knew that something big is going to jump them and the world...
That's why the whole command structure- inverting thing is about... And I think that the assassinations are also a part of that plan... To help them (The empire/Kel and Dancer/Laseen, or whatever you like to call them) prepare the grounds for CG...
Old guard? It was meant to keep secret about K&Dancer ascending, right? And the whole laseen-K&Dancer pact thing... So it would really seem too suspicious if the emperor's most trusted officers are kept in their high positions...
So laseen "faked" their deaths and disappearences, and hid them somewhere safe...
That's my crazy theory... That they DO in fact work together...

[Lord of Salvation]

So if they do work together then why did Cotillion risk Kalam ACTUALLY succeeding in his plan to assiassinate Laseen?

Sure he probably kenw Laseen wouldnt be stupid enough to place herself within harms way, but why allow it none the less?

[Dinivan]

Well, sure you have to take some risks if you're playing at such high stakes. And, as you said, Cot was certainly very sure that Laseen would keep herself safe. From what Dujek said later in MoI, everyone had trusted that Kalam would come to not killing Laseen. QB figured it out, Dujek believed it - so not that much risk. And Kalam is probably a very important figure, who is slowly moved over to Kel's and Cot's side. So by helping him they surely quicken the progress of winning him over...

[Lord of Salvation]

But the problem with that is his allegiances with the Empire are strengthened and he sees Kell and Cot as a detriment or risk to the empire. That perception will remain that way until he either realizes they are part of some major scheme where they are working together, or they reveal their plot to Kalam.

Until that time why would he keep doing their bidding? The previous acts he helped them with were only as repayment for their timely intervention in Malaz City.

[mmdw45]

I doubt Iskaral Pust = Shadowthrone, based on the irritated Hound that bats him around in the assault on Tremorlor. Such disrespect would probably not be shown to Shadowthrone... unless of course ST conceals Pust's true identity from the Hounds as well.

Incidentally, I read MoI first, got sucked into the series, and started over from the beginning. When I got to MoI for the second time I was *much* more appreciative of Rath'Shadowthrone's antics during Hetan's audience with the Mask Council. Heh. I wonder to what extent the gods' personalities influence their representatives in the Council.

-Maximilian

[philospher77]

SiriusL;96961 said:

The other thing SE's tried to do is make us think ST is insane. Look at his dialogue at any given time, and compare it to Iskaral Pust--similar (as of HoC) enough that I wondered if Pust actually ST, himself!

From what I recall, Kellanvad was considered crazy before he ascended. And ascending seems to mess with people. It's possible that it accentuates some parts, and polishes away others. So it's quite possible that some one who was (it sounds like) extremely paranoid and on the far side of acceptable behavior before acsending is now even more so after. And Dancer, who was probably a stabilizing force in Kel's life, is now even more on that side of the scale. So a friendship that worked before, when both men were more towards center, works less well now that they have moved out closer to the ends of the scale. But, they entered the ascension with the same end goals, so now they work towards them more independently than they did before. Make sense?

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Tasslehoff_Burrfoot;118874 said:

As said at the beginning of this thread. K&D's eventual goal has got to be something world changing/genius. Anything less will be a disappointment.

Ruler of all of the warrens, and an earthly empire more comprehensive than any before it.

[Tremolo]

Regarding the purges of the old guard and the emperor loyal soldiery we may have to consider that most of officers and officials in the empire were not trusted with the information that K&D were still on good terms with lasseen and the empire. These individuals could be trying to protect the empire as a whole by making sure none of the old guard would try to usurp Lasseen and thereby destabilize the empire.
Also a lot of uncontrolled ambition has been set loose in the form of Korbolo Dom and others who care nothing for the greater perspectives. They surely dont need any loyalists lurking in the shadows and being a nuisance to their plays for power.
So in all what I meant to say is that inverting the command structure was meant to protect important individuals but doing that also meant that they became more isolated and vulnerable. Old scores were settled and loyal pawns were terminated either by righteous zeal or pure self centered ambition.

[I HATE PORMQUAL]

Tasslehoff_Burrfoot;118874 said:

As said at the beginning of this thread. K&D's eventual goal has got to be something world changing/genius. Anything less will be a disappointment.

my bet is that they are trying to take over the pantheon. but certain events like the first throne and those pesky Edur, the chained one, and the hounds of darkness are probably pushing back the release date of their plans, but epic none the less

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I really get the feeling that ST is going to get the shaft in the end. Maybe Cotillion too, but shadowthrone for sure.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Never! Kellanved can never fail.