[Lord of Salvation]

Seeing that not many threads have been responded/replied to lately I decided to start a thread of my own, based on my overall thoughts on HoC. I know at least one other person has recently finished the book.

So I got HoC in the mail since I an American and it took me a few days to read it with work and everything else. And I have to say without a doubt this book was my least favorite in the series thus far.

The revelations in the book were nice to find out and past histories and everything but at times I found myself wanting to skip certain passages.

Everyones identity was just so obvious, it was easy to figure them all out since MoI was fresh in my mind. Im talking Urko, Traveller, Strings, L'oric...

Although there was one thing that surprised me and that was Minila being the female and not Apsalar guarding the First throne.

I could not stand any Karsa passage after reading that prolonged past of his, just very annoying to me. Sure he is very powerful now and wants to break his chains, but as a character I very much dislike him.

Heboric becoming Destriant to Treach who didnt see that coming, come on so obvious. And Gamet being dead when he was fighting with the Ghosts.

There was one thing that I didnt see comming and that was the true identity of Shaik. Who would have thought it was a Imas? Which leads me to my next point.

SE in this book did a wonderful job of intricate threads and plots. To have Shaik be Onrack's wife and tie together very subtle events to other characters such as the Ashok regiment, and the late revealing of Tavore's mothers visions and those of her own.

On to the bad now. SE made the youngsters WAAAAY too mature. Young Felsin and Grub, although, Grub is a weird little boy. But young Felsin was too argumentitive and too much like an enlightened woman.

The best parts of this book for me were Cotillion, Fiddler/Strings, and comic relief in the form of that Desert warrior(Corabb). Cotillion was just kick ass and his plots were all encompassing even though he had very capable agents. We even saw a softer side a few times from Cotillion.

Fiddler was an Icon to the renewed BB since this trek is the same scenario as the first Bridgeburners. His experience was fresh.

Corabb surviving near death experiences a handful of times made me laugh so hard. "Snakes, snakes" ahhh that was priceless. Come on a guy who survives two Cusser blasts and a run in with crossbows twice and thinks nothing more on the situation is hilarious. To imagine him slam the helm over the cusser and then be flung high in the air only to land and scramble away is so creative.

Overall this book had some nice revelations but anything to doo with Shaik other than Heboric or L'oric were dull to me. And to hear Gamets POV was boring as well. Heck anything to do wiht Adjunct Tavore was awful other than the Marines. To have Karsa kill two Deragoth is a bit obsured unless he is to become stronger than the CG himself.

I do hope we get to hear from Trull and Onrack concerning their fight to preserve the First Throne; eventhough, they have all those tormented child assassins.

[Dark Mac]

Lord of Salvation said:

Heboric becoming Destriant to Treach who didnt see that coming, come on so obvious. And Gamet being dead when he was fighting with the Ghosts.

It's always amusing when people think something is obvious...and then turn out to be spectacularly wrong. You really need to read more of the series before makign assumptions like that.

Quote

On to the bad now. SE made the youngsters WAAAAY too mature. Young Felsin and Grub, although, Grub is a weird little boy. But young Felsin was too argumentitive and too much like an enlightened woman.

Young Felisin is the same age as Old Felisin, in case you didn't catch that the first time.

I agree that HoC was worse than most of the other books, but it still had its good parts. Fiddler's chapters were great.

[Nade]

I personally liked anything Karsa.

I was a bit confused when reading the first 10 pages, I was like, why do these ppl wanna go to the village and kill children? Why the hell are their swords made out of wood and oil? What does this have to do with anything else?

But man...it turned out to be such amazing action, so violent and bloody, I love that. I like how Karsa initially believed his grandfather about anything he would say and how he eventually realized the truth of the matter, that the outside world was becoming more powerful and was slowly but surely encroaching on their villages unless he did something about it. I like his no nonsense attitude. If he wants something, he just walks up to it and take it, no barriers will impede him and he's not afraid.

After the first 260 or so pages, it basically settled into a normal 'tale of the malazan' novel, which was still good.

I wish it was Heboric who killed Bidithal with his tiger ghost hands, I bet he coulda done something even funkier.

[Cold Iron]

You waited for the book to be delivered and then wanted to skip parts of it? HoC had plenty of great stuff in it, i think you have been overwhelmed by DhG and MoI. Personally, I think HoC was better than GotM.

I think Karsa's history was needed. Another powerful character that just popped up with only dribs and drabs of history like so many others just would not have worked.

As for Grub and Felisin Younger being too mature, this is a pretty weak criticism.

And everyone's identity being obvious, well for a start i don't think strings and loric were supposed to be real mind benders. I can see it now... "I got it, strings is fiddler! that was so easy, i outsmarted erikson" ...pfft...

[Dolorous Menhir]

Did you like the Andarist scenes?

[Hume]

Quote

I could not stand any Karsa passage after reading that prolonged past of his, just very annoying to me. Sure he is very powerful now and wants to break his chains, but as a character I very much dislike him.

Once you read The Bonehunters you may come to like Karsa, I know I am kinda liking him know. Though I am waiting for someone to seriously humiliate him.

Quote

Heboric becoming Destriant to Treach who didnt see that coming, come on so obvious

Read Bonehunters (well-duh you will anyway) but for the Outcome of this Subthread you will see the reason behind all this.

Quote

The best parts of this book for me were Cotillion, Fiddler/Strings, and comic relief in the form of that Desert warrior(Corabb). Cotillion was just kick ass and his plots were all encompassing even though he had very capable agents. We even saw a softer side a few times from Cotillion.

I completely agree with you here I found those parts with Corrab hilarious(sp?) but at the same time a little confounding at to his survival. I had a strong inkling as to why he might have lived though a couple of those, I think it there was decent hint for it in HoC but you know why in BH.
And the cool thing is that Corrab goes from some minor rebel fighting under Leoman to a more fleshed out character in BH with the possibility of becoming relatively important.

Quote

I do hope we get to hear from Trull and Onrack concerning their fight to preserve the First Throne; eventhough, they have all those tormented child assassins.

You may remember that at the end of HoC Trull goes to tell his undead friends the story his life. Well that is basically what Midnight Tides is about. The only character in MT you will know is Trull Sengar who is main one and a cameo of a certain god that went and got crippled, everyone else is new. Two new cool characters to look out for are Tehol and Bugg . Its probably my 2nd favourite as well.
Then the Bonehunters will have you show the Onrack, Trull, Minala and Co defending the Imass First Throne. And that part is awesome

Overall though I would agree with you. It was how I felt when I first read HoC. Although I will say that personally HoC is the one book that benefits from a re-read far more than any of the others as you will enjoy it more. Trust me you will see even more plot intricacies revealed on a re-read.

[dessembrae]

Yip totally agree with Hume on that one.

Karsa although having a lot of back story in hoc is very essential. He has so much goin on regardless of whether you like the character. I personally really like his attitude ( can understand why others don't though ). Av just been back and reread hoc and enjoyed it much more than the first time. Thats the way to go about it.

[Gem Windcaster]

I loved every bit of it. I enjoy how SE keep throwing new, engaging characters at us, how he goes back and shows us how the characters end up where they are.
As for the supposed blind (read boring) spots, I think that is a good part, since it is also make the story very realistic. Although I am always surprised by how SE keep things happen all the time - but sometimes you have to read the books a couple of times to get what is happening.
I agree with the litterature critics say: a book that has been read only once has never been read.

[bwgan]

Just coming to the end of (another) reread. Must agree with others who say go back to it after the later books ~ you'll get even more from it.

@Hume ~ humilate Karsa?? Never! (Look at me I used to hate him [1st read of HoC!] now I'm defending him!).

[Folken]

I hate Karsa and his "WITNESS!" bs...but as Hume said, Bonehunters might change ur perception a little bit.

As for the identities, care to share your thoughts on who you think Traveller is? As for the Strrings stuff...well it wasn't really meant to be a secret from the reader. Besides it would've been a pointless thing to keep it a mystery...makes for more complicated, in an already complicated, story telling

[Agraba]

The Strings thing was supposed to be a mystery for two pages, because it's revealed in that very scene.

I probably started liking Karsa before most of you guys, on my first read, near the end of the first quarter of HoC.

Also, I didn't know that L'oric was Osserc's son until he saw him and revealed it, but maybe I'm just slow and stupid.

Sha'ik wasn't an Imass, the definition of Sha'ik is the mortal woman that's working as the Imass' vessel. Onrack's ex-wife was actually the Whirlwind Goddess herself; higher in the rebellion heirarchy than Sha'ik.

And I loved HoC on my first read. I didn't expect that Bidithal's cult was for the House of Chains, and I also didn't expect that Korbolo Dom was the leader of the Talons.

Also, Felisin Paran was made too mature because at the end of DHG, you see the Whirlwind Goddess embedding tons of information and wisdom into her head, and she undergoes a complete transformation. Recall the scene in HoC; Sha'ik demandingly walks into Heboric's tent, but he makes a ward blocking out all of the WW Goddess's power, and suddenly Felisin feels like a young vulnerable girl again, and all the memories of Beneth and Baudin and Kulp rushes into her. Then she has an emotional outreach to him, but he throws her out, remembering Felisin Younger, and then she turns back into a woman of steel.

[Folken]

Agraba said:

and I also didn't expect that Korbolo Dom was the leader of the Talons.

He's not..."self proclaimed" but nothing more.

[Lord of Salvation]

Jen said:

He's not..."self proclaimed" but nothing more.

That's exactly what I thought. He may have a few members who were actually members of the Talon back when Dancer lived, but other than that not much to say he is quote the leader of the Talons.

Although it may be of little consequence but does anyone know the identity of the Assassin in Korbolo's tent with the tattoo/branded bace who asked Kalam "do you recognize/remember me?"

I guess I am wrong on the Heboric end now that so many people have dropped hints.

And Karsa, you must admit in HoC his character is rash and annoying, but prior to Bonehunters I feel everyone would agree. So, after Bonehunters we hop on the bandwagon then do we, I guess I will see why that is.

Someone above did bring up a very good point. Neither did I see Bidithal's true motives. That is until I took a peek at the glossary and noticed a leper in the House of Chains. Then it all came together, well partially.

I recognized that Bidithal's cult was service to the HoC, but I did not see the plan to acquire the Kurald Em fragment for the Crippled God. But if you really think about it now it makes sense. The CG oversees the Edur the rulers of true shadow so why not get the largest fragment of their Warren then? Plus its componded when we learn of their plan to conquer the First Thrown.

Segway now to Traveller. I dont want to tell you who I believe it is because if its not then I dont want to know he isnt a possibility and still manage to be surprised [IF] I am wrong.

I have now started looking for Foreshadowing undertones all over the place as I am beginning to get used to SE's writing. For instance I knew Kalam and Quick would kill Kamist Reloe, because he started fretting about the tandem before Korbolo who dismissed the notion entirely.

The one thing that got me, I may have said earlier, is if Apsalar wasnt the "Woman" helping to guard the First Thrown, then where did she go?

Also of little consequence, what the eff Minila, when did she stop liking Kalam? Confused because this is more than a little couples fight its hardcore.

[Nade]

Regarding why Heboric is Trake's new destraint...

HUME said:

Read Bonehunters (well-duh you will anyway) but for the Outcome of this Subthread you will see the reason behind all this.

If I may venture a guess, (I didnt read BH yet), but is it cause he's the reason that Fener is no longer the Boar of Summer god of war anymore? That he 'displaced' Fener to this realm, leaving Fener's throne empty?

DONT ANSWER, Im just speculating out loud ..... :-|

[Dolorous Menhir]

Lord of Salvation said:

That's exactly what I thought. He may have a few members who were actually members of the Talon back when Dancer lived, but other than that not much to say he is quote the leader of the Talons.

Although it may be of little consequence but does anyone know the identity of the Assassin in Korbolo's tent with the tattoo/branded bace who asked Kalam "do you recognize/remember me?"

No, we don't know who that is, I've asked a couple of times. We just haven't been told. Either an ex-Claw or ex-Talon who knew Kalam from his Claw days, or even a Seven Cities type who knew Kalam pre-Malazan invasion.

Quote

And Karsa, you must admit in HoC his character is rash and annoying, but prior to Bonehunters I feel everyone would agree. So, after Bonehunters we hop on the bandwagon then do we, I guess I will see why that is.

No, we don't have to admit, because it isn't true. I thought Karsa's journey in HoC was excellent, I really enjoyed the long continuous story of his life. It was a departure from the skipping narratives of the earlier books, and Karsa is amazing. The Karsa-haters are just a vocal minority here, I like to think.

Quote

The one thing that got me, I may have said earlier, is if Apsalar wasnt the "Woman" helping to guard the First Thrown, then where did she go?

She was off on the mission that we saw Cotillion gave her. But obviously, you are not supposed to know what it is as of the end of HoC. It was Minala and the Shadowkids at the First Throne, I don't see how you could doubt that.

Quote

Also of little consequence, what the eff Minila, when did she stop liking Kalam? Confused because this is more than a little couples fight its hardcore.

You do remember reading the other relationships in the books, right? Pust and Mogora for example - SE seems to favour tough love between his characters.

[Called-by-the-Voices]

The Corabb-thing: I would put it in the (so called) SE's flaw of making his characters over powerful... Like quick Ben, Paran, Karsa, Apsalar, Kalam, Trull, Brys... And so on... God-like characters...

[Hume]

@ Voices

Have you read bonehunters ?
EDIT: Arh, never mind, noticed your post in the MT forum.

[Called-by-the-Voices]

No... Haven't got them yet... Here in Croatia I berely found the first 5 books.
Why? Corabb becomes more powerful? :cool:

[SiriusL]

Wow, I guess I'm very obtuse.

I didn't see Heboric's transition to Destriant coming at all, nor did I have any inkling Loric was related to Osric. At the time, I didn't even know who Osric was, and the only thing they seemed to have in common was the "ic".

Strings was easy, as was Bidithal and the HoC (given the drawings made by the Silgar (right?)). I admit to some remaining confusion as to the First Throne and its guardians.

Quote

Young Felisin is the same age as Old Felisin, in case you didn't catch that the first time.

Huh? Seriously? I got the impression that Felisin Younger was 8-10 years old, and Felisin/Sha'ik was in her mid- to late-teens. Did I really miss something, there?

[I HATE PORMQUAL]

HoC wasnt too bad.
could have used a sword battle between the adjunct and Shai'k then the spirit dying and then the adjunct pokes her with the pretty sword. i really wanted the adjunct to take off her sisters helm then come to terms with what she just did...

OMG WHERE DID COTILLION GET HIS WHIP/ROPE. I WANT ONE!!!!

i really liked the scorpion fight as well, it made me laugh. but the one who kept stealing the show was Iskaral Pust. normally i love the sections with Kalam but i kept waiting for the book to go back to the woes of pust and his "wife"

I WANT MORE QUICK BEN


SPORATIC TYPING!!!