[Dark Mac]

GardenGnome said:

Hmm, not bad, IH. I am not entirely convinced on everything you say, but then again, we have nothing to back this up, except from what we have in front of us here, so several theories are, at the present, equally likely.

As for Kallor - it's not lack of interest, it's his curse: "Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula, each time you rise, you shall then fall. All that you achieve shall turn to dust in your hands." MoI, page 40.

So, Darujhistan seems like one place Kallor might've ruled - do we know of any others?

But...Darujhistan's still there. Anything Kallor does has to die in some horrible way (horrible to Kallor, I mean). Which is why it seems like a bad idea to me for the CG to take him into the HoC.

Was the age of Daruhjistan ever stated? I seem to recall that it's only a few thousand years old, but I can't remember who says that. I can't think of any tyrants who would've been around then. Perhaps the first Tyrant of Assail, who took a bunch of Seguleh with him when he went to that continent. Just imagine...an entire continent populated by Seguleh. It certainly wouldn't be a surprise for the Imass to be losing against them.

[Dark Mac]

potsherds said:

I disagree with you saying that anything Kallor does is completely destroyed:
"Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula, each time you rise, you shall then fall. All that you achieve shall turn to dust in your hands." MoI, page 40.

All that he achieves, meaning his success in conquering and building empires. Not the places themselves. And in the case of Darujistan, if it was Kallor, he rose to the place of power, and then when he left, he fell.

Well, what he achieved would've been the creation of the empire...and then the empire would've disappeared. In fact, Darujhistan is commonly called the greatest city in the world, and the rulers would've been the ones who made it what it was.

Quote

But I don't really think its Kallor. I think your second idea is better. At least, it does offer an explanation as to why the Imass are doing to poorly on Assail. I am actually thinking it most likely is none of the tyrants listed thus far.

Heh, I don't think it's any of the ones we know of either...but the probability that the Tyrant will return adds questions. SE seems to be introducing fewer characters now that we're most of the way into the series, so I doubt the Tyrant would be someone completely new.

Also: could someone remind me why Rake was on the Seguleh Island? And how long ago that was?

[GingerBreadMan]

The Imass would not have much trouble with the Seguleh as we know them.

Imass Bonecasters would DESTROY them as from all we have gathered they have no counter to magic.

Imass warriors would go to dust and attack individual Seguleh with odds of 20-1, kill the seguleh and go back to dust.

Whatever is killing them on Assail uses some form of Magic, if only in their weapons.(though to kill Bonecasters, I imagine they have some sort of magic as well).

As far as Rake goes- Basically he just wandered onto the Island during his travels.He discovered the Seguleh, went for a walk, and ended up killing a few of them before getting tired of being constantly challenged. As for how long, can't remember but it probably wasn't to long ago.

Maybe a couple hundred years?

[Hume]

Well its all speculation so far as to 'who' this tyrant my be So I wil add my two cents.
Its possible that its connected to Tyrant of Assail but not likely as we will go back to Genabackis and specifically Darujhistan in later books and that Assail is ICE's domain. I doubt the two Authors will overlap their work 'that' much.

My two candidates are Rhulad and Karsa.
Rhulad is fairly self-explanatory.
But its possible (all speculation) that Karsa is uknowingly involved in a prophecy where he becomes a ruler on Genabackis and by default Darujhistan, though maybe not necessarilly a prophecy involved too. While his character at this point says that he has become more a 'just' teblor as well that can interpreted differently from the subjets of people he would rule. There has already though been one prophecy made to Karsa, I think it was Calm or the Unbound and they said he make a choice that would be almost earth shattering.
I base this simply on the statement that karsa made to Torvald Nom(?) on how he would one day go back and make an army of his Teblor. Now I cannot see the malazans stopping those Teblor at all. There are 70,000(?) barghast though, but it was implied they may using their boats soon as well.
The only possible thing that could stop an army of teblor would an army of Segulah. bit of a crazy theory though.

[Cause]

We dont 100% they dont have magic. Also they have been around for perhaps thousands of years longer whilst the seguleh we know have been isolated on a small island. Perhaps they elvoved diffrent cultures. or of course they are two diffrent things entirly. As for imass beating them again were not entirely sure they dont have magic, we do know whoever is beating them has invested swords for seemingly the whole army. And turning to dust was not considered good tactic by tool to use on mok.

[madala]

All I've found on a re-read of GotM so far is this from pg 369 of the mass market paperback.

Mammot is talking to Crokus.

" 'The history of Darujihistan,' he said. 'Iam just beginning the fifth volume, which opens with the reign of Ekralm, second to last of the Tyrant Kings'
Crokus blinked, 'Who?'.
Smiling, Mammut sipped his tea. "Usurper of Letastte and succeeded by his daughter Sanderay, who brought on the Rising Time, and with it the end of the age of tyrants."

So it doesn't sound like their was a single tyrant. There's also this from Circle Breaker.

"The Barbican, and all it stoof for, patiently waited still, aa spectre of the past, hungry to be born yet again."

[Hume]

Nice work there
I'd like to emphasise one part

madala said:

"The Barbican, and all it stoof for, patiently waited still, aa spectre of the past, hungry to be born yet again."

Sound Familiar ?

One more reseruction in the Books left isnt it ?

[GardenGnome]

madala said:

So it doesn't sound like their was a single tyrant.

Good find. However, keep in mind what IH pointed out - the children of the tyrant. IE, the first king was the original tyrants, his descendants is probably the Tyrant Kings Mammot refers to.


Hume: How would Circle Breaker know? Yeah, it *could* mean a ressurection, but it could be any other despotic rule - I think Circle Breaker first and foremost feared the Malazan, whom he viewed as possible new tyrants.

[Aptorian]

The children of the Tyrant could also be the Nobility of Darujistan if we are thinking bloodlines. Hence the mages (not so) secret Cabal in GotM.

[nzoreo]

this is just an our there theory maybe this tryan is kruppe? or his mule? maybe kruppe is a tyrant in the fact that he drives everyone insane with his talking all the time, i'd rather take raest of kruppe for a ruller any day

[Abyss]

In DG, Loeman mentions that Shaik (the wrinkled) looked into Karsa's future and 'was appalled'.

And that just can't be good.

But much was made in MoI of how the Bhargast gods' return was a huge event, and that the united Bhargast tribes were due for amazing things in the future.

Of course, the point is also made (see Itkovian's chat with Cafal amongst the canoes) that they are going to become seafaring peoples again, so they may not stick around to set their impending greatness against Karsa's Teblor empire of scarred and pissed off savages.

- Abyss, thinks real estate values on Genabackis are going straight into the toilet.

[Cause]

potsherds said:

I don't think this is a crazy theory at all! This idea occurred to me after I posted my first response. Wasn't it mentioned in HOC, something to the effect that the Teblor had a grand heritage of conquest and a much larger territory...etc. I really don't remember anything specific, just the feeling of a fallen people. That being one of the reasons Karsa goes on his grand quest in the first place.

The idea of the Teblor getting antsy and deciding to see what they can do in a scrap against the 'children' makes me nervous. This is probably the best theory thus far.

But to point out something that appears contrary to this idea: why would the Teblor, being such good warriors and possessing their own speedy healing abilities and such, use the Seguleh as their army? They wouldn't need them...would they? I completely agree with the interpretation that the Seguleh were the army of this old tyrant.

I see no connection what so ever. Why would karsa be the tyrant?

[Dark Mac]

GingerBreadMan said:

The Imass would not have much trouble with the Seguleh as we know them.

Imass Bonecasters would DESTROY them as from all we have gathered they have no counter to magic.

Imass warriors would go to dust and attack individual Seguleh with odds of 20-1, kill the seguleh and go back to dust.

Whatever is killing them on Assail uses some form of Magic, if only in their weapons.(though to kill Bonecasters, I imagine they have some sort of magic as well).

The two Seguleh at the end of MoI were taking apart K'ell Hunters like they were nothing, far better than the Imass were. And besides, the Seguleh on Assail would have the Tyrants on their side.

HUME said:

But its possible (all speculation) that Karsa is uknowingly involved in a prophecy where he becomes a ruler on Genabackis and by default Darujhistan, though maybe not necessarilly a prophecy involved too. While his character at this point says that he has become more a 'just' teblor as well that can interpreted differently from the subjets of people he would rule. There has already though been one prophecy made to Karsa, I think it was Calm or the Unbound and they said he make a choice that would be almost earth shattering.
I base this simply on the statement that karsa made to Torvald Nom(?) on how he would one day go back and make an army of his Teblor. Now I cannot see the malazans stopping those Teblor at all. There are 70,000(?) barghast though, but it was implied they may using their boats soon as well.
The only possible thing that could stop an army of teblor would an army of Segulah. bit of a crazy theory though.

What prophecy? And why would the Teblor be unstobbable? The Toblakai have obviously been defeated in the past, and the Uryd are the only ones who still have blood oil...and I got the impression that there were hardly any Teblor left, perhaps 1000 when all tribes are combined. There are certainly far more Seguleh than that, and I believe that an army of Teblor would be far less effective than individual Teblor are. I can't see Karsa being a leader in anything but war either, certainly not a ruler over Darujhistan.

[Aptorian]

This whole karsa might being the tyrant subthread tinkles my arnold schwarzenegger senses. Does any one remember the Conan the barabarian movies. After years of struglle killing of thousand or more foes finally Conan sits the Throne alone in darkness...

Apt, thinks that the Governator should play the leadrole in the Karsa the Barbarian spin-off

[GingerBreadMan]

Dark Mac said:

The two Seguleh at the end of MoI were taking apart K'ell Hunters like they were nothing, far better than the Imass were. And besides, the Seguleh on Assail would have the Tyrants on their side.
.

Yes, but the undead could not turn to dust and all the Seguleh are not as good as those two.

No matter how could a swordsman you are, if 20 Imass appear out of the blue and attack you, you are cooked.


As for the Tyrants helping, from the comments from Dancer about the Tyrants simply playing games I would think they are just sitting back with their army/s and watching the fun.

[Hume]

@ Darc Mac

Like I said it is ALL pure speculation at this point. No we dont know how many teblor there are But I do suspect that its more than 1000 and that it was only that one tribe that had fallen the others were close or still what there were a longtime a ago. Just a theory

@ Potsherds
Probably should have made it cleaerer. But I didnt mean that the Segulah would fight for the Teblor but rather what army out there could possible stop an army of teblor ? Segulah. So should Karsa be the 'Tyrant' (that term can used loosely) and use his teblor as an army the only ones capable of stopping them would be the Segulah as in fight against.

[Dark Mac]

Heh, I'm just biased against Karsa and the Teblor, so I like to argue against them at every opportunity. I do think that Bairoth Gild and Dayliss's child might get in the way of Karsa's dream, especially if she ends up growing as fast as Rud Elalle or Silverfox.

GingerBreadMan said:

Yes, but the undead could not turn to dust and all the Seguleh are not as good as those two.

No matter how could a swordsman you are, if 20 Imass appear out of the blue and attack you, you are cooked.

IIRC, K'rul and Envy discussed how they thought the Seguleh first would send thousands of initiates of Senu and Thurule's level, so it's not as if they were at all extraordinary.

I think you're overrating the power of turning to dust; we've seen and heard of many Imass who took damage grievous enough that they were severed from the Ritual, and after that they can't turn into dust anymore.

[Cause]

GingerBreadMan said:

Yes, but the undead could not turn to dust and all the Seguleh are not as good as those two.

No matter how could a swordsman you are, if 20 Imass appear out of the blue and attack you, you are cooked.


As for the Tyrants helping, from the comments from Dancer about the Tyrants simply playing games I would think they are just sitting back with their army/s and watching the fun.

Senu and thurule are about 14-16 years old, and that appears to be the average age for a 11th and 13th levle initiate. So the seguleh should be able to field a decent army. Ofcourse one problem I see is if they train only with broadswords its not really and army more groups of champions in one place. Still I would buy a book just to read about it