[Aptorian]

When the dead Seguleh hunting Skinner meets Cutter/Crokus and the others in the dead city, it hints of a tyrant with an army once "holding sway" in Darujistan. I'm a bit confused to the meaning of this conversation.

I’ll recount the conversation, p. 129:
Cutter upon noticing the Segulehs mask.

[�Beru fend,� he whispered. A Seguleh!�
At that the soldier turned, then walked closer. Daru, you are far from home! Tell me, do the tyrants children still rule Darujistan?�
Cutter shook his head.
You look crazed, mortal, what ails you?�
I'd heard, I mean Seguleh usually say nothing to anyone. Yet you...�
The fever zeal still grips my mortal kin, does it? Idiots! The tyrants army still holds sway in city, then?
Who? What? Darujistan is ruled by a council. We have no army.
Brilliant insanity! No Seguleh in the city?�
No! Just stories. Legends, I mean.
So where are my masked stick-pivoting compatriots hiding?.
An island, it's said, far to the south, off the coast, beyond Morn-
Morn! Now the sense of it comes to me. They are being held in readiness. Darujistan's council, mages one and all, yes? Undying, secretive, paranoid mages! Crouching low lest the tyrant returns, as one day he must! Returns, looking for his army! Hah, a council!�
That's not the council, sir, Cutter said. “If you are speaking of mages, that would be the T'horrud Cabal-
T'orrud! Yes, clever. Outrageous! Barukanal, Derudanith, Travalegrah, Mammoltenan? These names strike your soul, yes? I see it.�

Well I haven’t read Gardens of The Moon in a long time but it’s not the Jaghut tyrant they mean is it? If it is, does that mean that the Seguleh were the tyrants children/army or does it mean that they are being held in the ready to fight the Tyrant, or his army, if they/it returns? I would assume the Tyrant was far older than Darujistan. But then again we don’t know how far back Darujistans history goes, it might be as old as the ruins under the oldest cities even before the First Empire in The Seven Cities.

Or, as Cutter ponders on the next page p. 130:

They didn’t hear. They weren’t meant to. But we were. Why? Had the Soldier been mistaken in his assumptions? Sent by Hood, not to see the dead priests and priestesses of D’rek… but to speak with us.
The Tyrant shall return. This, to a son of Darujistan. “Gods,� he whispered again, “I’ve got to get home.�

This leads me to think that the Tyrant wasn’t the Jaghut Tyrant. So who might this be? And will the Seguleh fight or serve this Tyrant?

[GardenGnome]

Glad you made this thread, I was gonna do it one of these days anyway

I don't think he's refering to Raest - the Jaghut Tyrant. I think he's more refering to the kings. These are also mentioned in GotM, as the rulers of old or so.

My impression was that the Seguleh were kept in reserve, should the tyrants return (and then move in to stop the tyrant). On the other hand, the Soldier says "he tyrant returns, as one day he must! Returns, looking for his army!" which might indicate the Seguleh - allthough nothing is said wether or not they are the willing servants of the Tyrant.
Also, consider what this says about the Seguleh - "the fever zeal". Never (more or less) to speak as long as the Tyrant rule? This would seem like the Soldiers assumption, as he follows up with the question/assumption that the Tyrant still rule.


Another interesting question is the Cabal - are they truly "undying" as the soldier says, or are the names just hereditary? If they are truly undying, then how much weakened is their power, after the death of Mammo and whichever other mages that got killed? Not to mention, did they truly die? I think we can safely assume Mammo died, and from how it was told in GotM I'd say others died too - Baruk and that witch both noticed the death of their friends.
So, let's say the Cabal is indeed working against a tyrant, and they are now weakened. When will the tyrant return, and who is he/she? From where does the tyrant come?

Also, assuming the Cabal is against the Seguleh, was their magic powerful enough to stop that entire hord from attacking? We know the Seguleh can be manipulated by magic, but Lady Envy said it took more nad more effort. Then again, threatning with a fireball is also a way of controlling... But that doesn't fit either, as neither Baruk nor Derud (that was the name of the witch, yes?) seemed to hold much in the offensive department.


So much information in those few paragraphs, I can't wait to see how this will turn out

[Aptorian]

Yes, it's very interesting

Apt said:

“The fever zeal still grips my mortal kin, does it? Idiots! The tyrants army still holds sway in city, then?”
“Who? What? Darujistan is ruled by a council. We have no army –“
“Brilliant insanity! No Seguleh in the city?”
“No! Just… stories. Legends, I mean.”

This little paragraph really had me wondering, since you can read it in two ways. Either the Seguleh are with the tyrants or they were the tyrants enemies. And with the Cabal weakened or crushed it gets very interesting.

I hope SE takes this thread up and it isn't just left to be settled in a book outside the MBotF.

[GardenGnome]

Can you remember any legends/stories about Seguleh in Darujistan? Sadly, a friend of mine is borrowing GotM, and most info about Darujistan is from that book, but I can't remember any reference to them. Ok, one exception: In the glossary one of their coins is listed...

[Aptorian]

I'm only 300 pages into my reread of it so far

But I could imagine even more info about them could be found in Memories of Ice, which I unfortunantly don't posses.

[GardenGnome]

Another good question, can't believe I missed it first time around...
The first idea that springs to mind is that the Tyrant is somehow connected to CG. Therefore, Hood try to stop CG from getting control of Darujhistan. It could also just be a figure of speech, as it's Hood's Soldier, and it sounds cool. However, let's assume it's not accidental, it's much more interesting that way.

[Monoch Ochem]

It seems a bit tenuous though. Could Hood not use a more direct approach? They're pretty far from Darujhistan...why Cutter? Unless Hood wanted to enlist Heboric's help...or Scillara's unborn child?

Anyway, I wonder how weakened the Cabal actually is.....I mean, Mammot seems to have been very valuable. 1 or 2 more were lost but we don't know how many there are. Moreover, the Trygalle Trade Guild are based in Darujhistan...how much do we know of their interaction with the Cabal? If they're part of it then the Cabal is powerful indeed. Karpoland Demesand alone is no joke travelling those warrens.

Question: was the sorceress who died in Hood's underworld (near the statues) the same one who made the deliveries in MoI?

[Rat Mentor]

Hoods interest in Cutter...

Oponn's interest in Cutter...

Cotillion's interest in Cutter..

Anomander Rake's interest in Cutter..

Kruppe's interest in Cutter...

The Cabal's interest in Cutter...

Everbody (well quite a few) seem very interested in Cutter. Mammot his "uncle" takes him in to look after. We don't know Cutters parents. His origins etc.. Oponn gift him their coin.. Rake protects him.. Kruppe see's him as an important player.. And Hood gives him a message about Darujhistan past... Why????

Could it be that Cutters blood line has something todo with the "Tyrant" in question. Can't wait for this thread to develop.

[Abyss]

@RatM - interesting point re: Cutter. He certainly seems to be getting a lot of attention from higher powers. Also, he's travelled the Azath, can call on Blind (for all the good it did), has Cotillion as his patron, spent quality time with Icarium and Apsalar amongst others... we haven't really seen him get into a fight since GotM, but much has been made of his intelligence and leadership.

Re: the Cabal - Baruk's involvement in Duiker's resurrection may suggest he is aware of soul-shifting, so perhaps the Cabalists killed by Vorcan aren't as dead as they seemed to be at the end of GotM.

Re: The tyrant, while i still think this might be Raest, in the GotM glossary,. there is a ref to the Tyrant Kings of Darujhistan. And in TB, Cotillion, yelling at the Imass, mentioned the Tyrants on Assail. Connection? Possibly.

- Abyss, has liked Cutter since the first book.

[madala]

I need to reread GotM to refresh my memory, but I think there was mention of a Tyrant ruling early in its history..

In general one would expect any story to revolve around the destinies of those one meets first in a tale. So, I've always thought that Crokus/Cutter would be important, as he's the first person we meet when the focus of GotM shifts to Darujistan. As he's not done anything particularly noteworthy so far, I have been wondering when he would step things up. Maybe combatting the Tyrant (returned) will be his thing. We'll probably find out in Toll the Hounds.

Other people we meet early in GotM are of course Ganoes, Whiskeyjack, the Hounds, Apsalar, Ammanas and Cotillion...

[GardenGnome]

Abyss, very nice connection there, with Baruk and soulshifting. This really starts to sound interesting... It makes a lot of sense, when thinking of "undying" mages.

Madala: Yes, they talk about the time of the tyrants, or the kings or somesuch. I can't quite remember, very long time since I read GotM, but they certainly talk about it. However, no reference (that I can recall) is made to the Seguleh. Still, Cutter refers to stories - legends of Seguleh in the city. Something I missed, or is this new info?

[PannionDude]

In GOTM Circle Breaker is standing before the Despot's Barbican, where the tyrants once ruled, and thinking that its apparent fragility is just an illusion. He realizes that it, and all that it represents, awaits a resurrection. It is this that he is motivated to work against.

Famous Tyrants in MBOTF to this point:

Kallor
Dessilembackis
Raest
Tyrants of Assail

Any of these seem to fit the bill to be the Tyrant of Daruhljistan?


BTW, I think the Seguleh's "fever zeal" which the Second so despises refers to their insane dedication to weapon skill. I'm not sure whether they await the return of the Tyrant to function as his army...or to slay him.

[Aptorian]

PannionDude said:

Famous Tyrants in MBOTF to this point:

Kallor
Dessilembackis
Raest
Tyrants of Assail
Any of these seem to fit the bill to be the Tyrant of Daruhljistan?

Tyrant kings of Darujistan is also mentioned in a diskussion between Crokus and Mammot in GotM

Then of course you could suggest Rhulad.

[GardenGnome]

PannionDude: He talks about the fever zeal after Cutter says something about Seguleh never talking - thus, I think it might be a reference to not talking. Or something again related to talking, maybe the entire warrior code, yes.

[Imperial Historian]

Quote

Daru, you are far from home! Tell me, do the tyrant’s children still rule Darujistan?

The Seguleh Second connects darjhustan to the tyrants children, not the tyrant himself... these must be the tyrant kings spoken of in Mammot's histories.

Quote

“I-I’d heard, I mean – Seguleh usually say nothing – to anyone. Yet you…�
“The fever zeal still grips my mortal kin, does it? Idiots! The tyrants army still holds sway in city, then?�

The inference here seems to be that Cutters familiarity with the seguleh is from the fact that they 'the tyrants army' are present in Darjhustan.

Quote

“Who? What? Darujistan is ruled by a council. We have no army –“
“Brilliant insanity! No Seguleh in the city?�
“No! Just… stories. Legends, I mean.�
“So where are my masked stick-pivoting compatriots hiding?�.
“An island, it’s said, far to the south, off the coast, beyond Morn-“
“Morn! Now the sense of it comes to me. They are being held in readiness.

No seguleh in the city ie the tyrants army no longer there, so they are in Morn being held in readiness.

Quote

Darujistan’s council – mages one and all, yes? Undying, secretive, paranoid mages! Crouching low lest the tyrant returns, as one day he must! Returns, looking for his army! Hah, a council!�
“That’s not the council, sir,� Cutter said. “If you are speaking of mages, that would be the T’orrud Cabal-“
“T’orrud! Yes, clever. Outrageous! Barukanal, Derudanith, Travalegrah, Mammoltenan? These names strike your soul, yes? I see it.�

The suggestion here is that the Seugleh and the t'orrud cabal are intimatly linked, both presumably under the tyrant himself... but when he left they overthrew his children and removed the seguleh from the city, but still worry about the return of the tyrant who must be some ascendant who yet lives... could prove to be a very interesting plot line.

Especially when you consider that Darjhustan and it's prominent citizens, such as kruppe for one have an opposition to tyranny, and the seguleh themselves mention in MOI an aversion to tyrants, there system of leadership depends entirely on the sword so no tyrant can gain control... or something along those lines...

All seems to suggest that there was once a tyrant who ruled Darjhustan with the seguleh and the t'orrud cabal as his underlings, he left leaving the city to his children who were then overthrown by the t'orrud cabal and the seguleh left the city, freed of the tyrants rule the seguleh oppose tyranny, as do the t'orrud cabal... as to how things will play out in the future, the tyrant has to be out there somewhere...

Personally I think Kallor's a candidate, he's been said to build empires and abandom them due to lack of interest before after all...

[GardenGnome]

Hmm, not bad, IH. I am not entirely convinced on everything you say, but then again, we have nothing to back this up, except from what we have in front of us here, so several theories are, at the present, equally likely.

As for Kallor - it's not lack of interest, it's his curse: "Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula, each time you rise, you shall then fall. All that you achieve shall turn to dust in your hands." MoI, page 40.

So, Darujhistan seems like one place Kallor might've ruled - do we know of any others?

[Cause]

GardenGnome said:

PannionDude: He talks about the fever zeal after Cutter says something about Seguleh never talking - thus, I think it might be a reference to not talking. Or something again related to talking, maybe the entire warrior code, yes.

I think the seguleh are based in part on the spartans. The iron currency the martial culture etc. The spartans were known for speaking with very few words which is were the word laconic comes from. Lakedomia. So I think the fever zeal refers to the seguleh obsesion with training and being the best and based as they are on a spartan model SE included the laconic speech. I dont think its anything more important than that.