[PannionDude]

I like that the prevalence of female soldiers among the Malazan forces does not translate to a horde of lightly armored beautiful ninja-chicks winning with 'speed over strength' (whatever the heck that means, I've won national fencing championships and I've got no idea what this refers to). Rather, the women are just as heavily armored and prosaicly armed as their male counterparts. This strikes me as a very realistic depiction of an empire fighting wars on multiple fronts. They need every body they can get, it doesn't matter if they are slightly weaker on average.

Obviously Apsalar is a stereotype, but I figute she's the same sort of send-up of a stereotype as Karsa Orlong. Archetypical figures have their place. For the most part the depiction of female combatants seems extremely realistic. Women can shoot a crossbow or throw a munition just as well as a man.

[Talon]

Dolorous Menhir;90867 said:

Misan Gilani more than held her own against Dejim Nebrahl.

I agree, she did as well as any man could have

BridgeBurner;90885 said:

How about Faradan Sort?

We haven't really seen her in battle yet, but she must have some good fighting skills, considering her past.

(and the same could be the case with Dunsparrow)

Yeah FS 'stood the wall'.....a feat which seems to be respected by all the other soldiers.

I think that the females when trained in the Malazan army can be as good as the trained male soldiers. I like the kind of equality SE gives to the female and male soldiers (especially the interplay between Koryk and Smiles and that knife)

And those heavies always seem to 'hold their own' against male opposition.

[Gem Windcaster]

I love how SE depicts women in the series. They are great leaders and warriors without having to 'be like' men. I love how he makes characters like Apsalar and Korlat go through difficult stuff without them surrendering to the demands around them - they make their own choices with so much dignity that it makes female characters in other fantasy fiction disappear in a puff of smoke. I also like how SE writes about the dangers about being a woman in a world at war. Some fantasy writers have a tendency to glorify violence against women (If they do it on purpose or not I don't know), and I don't wanna speculate on why in this thread. When SE describes an horrifying event - be it against men, women or children - it is never glorified. Instead there are instant and obvious consequences. Not in a way that a lightning srikes down the offender or anything (that wouldn't be realistic after all), but something much more profound: there are no excuses - explanations maybe, but never excuses.
I like how SE makes women take on the same dangers as men do (and if you believe women are 'weaker', they actually take on much more danger). As warriors, wifes, girlfriends, mothers and leaders they take up just as much space as any male character in the series.

BUt you could say the same thing about the male characters in the books. I think it is important to recognize the fact that SE has chosen not to write the characters first and foremost as male or female, but as people. If a strong and interesting character just happens to be female, so what of it? It is only interesting to SE as a way of understanding that character, but it is never cliché.

As for women being able to fight 'just like' men, I think the question isn't interesting. First, it is fiction, so women are whatever the author says they are. Second, isn't it clear that fighting and soldiering (two different things, yes?) are not just about being strong physically (although strength can help, but other things can help aswell, yes?). Thirdly, anyone that says women can't fight have never really known a woman. All we need is a reason. And that reasons might not always be something a man can relate to.

[Abyss]

Curiously, Lorn, Tavore, Tamber and Laseen have been absent in the above discussion.

Obviously for various reasons, none of them are/were 'mere' soldiers, but even before the Eres showed up, Tamber was noted as Tavore's fencing partner, and while the Eres kept her from dying, her skill was her own.

Lorn was known as a skilled duelist, and Tavore as a military leader (eventually). And Laseen was amongst many female Claw we see in the course of the books. Plus, hello, 'Empress'.

It is interesting tho', that the 'top tier' of warriors remains, as far as we've seen, male - Dassem, Skinner, Blues, Greymane, various others, and of course many of whom have powers-boosts of sorts in play.

- Abyss, would add Queen Boudica to the original list, btw.

[Battalion]

Caladan Brood wears women's underwear, does that count? -- whoops, that might have been a spoiler. Sorry.

[Gem Windcaster]

Abyss, how come you don't see Korlat as a 'top tier' warrior? I certainly do.
However, it always comes down to who actually has been fighting each other. Granted, skill don't always makes for a win. But I do see Korlat as a top tier warrior. Although, it might be because I don't see warriors as only fighting with swords or spears, but anything that kills people. For instance, Lady Envy is very good at killing people, but it depends on how you define the concept of a warrior for her to actually be one. Isn't Quick Ben a warrior? At least I think of him as such. Then Lady Envy would be a warrior also. But maybe someone needs a 'cause' of some particular nature to be called warrior? I am not sure how my definition would fail here. Is Kalam or Apsalar warriors? I am not sure. I would rather be inclined to call Lady Envy a warrior than Kalam. I'd call Kalam a soldier. Oh, I'm probably over analyzing the word warrior !
But seriosuly, we need a definition of sorts to actually get anywhere with this discussion. I'm a sucker for definitions

[Abyss]

Gem Windcaster;176977 said:

Abyss, how come you don't see Korlat as a 'top tier' warrior? I certainly do. ...

Well, for one thing, she's a draconic soletaken immortal tiste andii with access to two elder warrens. for another, we've never seen her pick up a sword.

More to the point, i was discussing 'normal' (ish) soldiers, not Ascendents and variations thereof. Obviously if we throw it that open, various non-humans and gods come into play.

- Abyss, plays fair.

[Battalion]

Such as Silander? I think that's her name. Rake's partner. She's pretty tough.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Silandah...the dragon? I don't think dragons really fall under "women" as discussed in this thread, even female ones.

[Battalion]

Dolorous Menhir;176991 said:

Silandah...the dragon? I don't think dragons really fall under "women" as discussed in this thread, even female ones.

True enough. I was just responding to Abyss. He said something about non-humans.

Whoever gave me neg-rep: It is relevent to the post before mine.

[Gem Windcaster]

So I guess you do have a definition of what warriors are about? I would like to hear yours, because obviously you don't have the same definition as mine. Also, could you please read all of my post above? Thankyou.

[Battalion]

As I understand things, women, in the real world, are better prepared to dealing with mental presures, such as you would suffer in a torture situation, or under severe questioning. In that respect it could be said that women are mentally stronger than men, and thus vital to the workings of a functioning army.
A few examples of women in positions of power:
Vorkan Leader of the Guild of Assassins.
Sha'ik Leader of the Rebellion
Janal Queen of Letheras
Lazeen Empress of Malazan Empire
Atri-Prida Yan Tovis Commander of Letherii forces.
Those are a few I can remember. I quite like the fact that woman are equal.

Also I noted that women seemed to have a high standing in the T'lan Imass too, and a rather low one in the Wickens.

I see very few wicken women.

A warrior is someone who is engauged in, or experienced in battle. I'd say both Kalam and Apsalar fill those requirments.

[Abyss]

Good list. Have rep.

Nether might be an example of a Wickan, although she was more of a mage than a leader, she had a certain commanding aspect.

Sandalath, while i presume a mage (i think), is one of the few non-draconic Tiste women we see in a strong role. We see no Liosan women, and amongst the Edur only the female mages in MT, although Trull's mother seemed to fill a leadership role there. Battalion's ref to Twilight reminds me that it's interesting that there were no female Edur warriors in MT and TB (that i canr ecall - anyone know otherwise?), although the Leth force at the end of TB included (i think) female Letherii soldiers.

- Abyss, gender-fender-bender.

[Gem Windcaster]

Battalion;177029 said:

As I understand things, women, in the real world, are better prepared to dealing with mental presures, such as you would suffer in a torture situation, or under severe questioning. In that respect it could be said that women are mentally stronger than men, and thus vital to the workings of a functioning army.
A few examples of women in positions of power:
Vorkan Leader of the Guild of Assassins.
Sha'ik Leader of the Rebellion
Janal Queen of Letheras
Lazeen Empress of Malazan Empire
Atri-Prida Yan Tovis Commander of Letherii forces.
Those are a few I can remember. I quite like the fact that woman are equal.

Also I noted that women seemed to have a high standing in the T'lan Imass too, and a rather low one in the Wickens.

I see very few wicken women.

A warrior is someone who is engauged in, or experienced in battle. I'd say both Kalam and Apsalar fill those requirments.

True.

[Tristan]

I always saw it as this: these women are not middle class athletes, but women battered by life and expected to survive on their own. These women grew up in a culture where they are expected to fight for everything just like men. Also, with few exceptions, these are fairly big women, muscular and powerful. They are born into a culture where they are challenged constantly, and expected to compete with the men. I don't think you can adequately judged what women can and can't do when for the most part even in the most enlightened countries women still are constantly confronted with glass ceilings. I think it will still be decades before we reach a time when women are treated like they are in Erikson's world, and only then will we see how much of what he writes is fantasy versus what unhindered women can achieve in the real world.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Maknavox;177160 said:

Giggles tristan. Females arnt that respected in eriksons world.
So far we have only seen the malazan empire and the grey swords
treat women equally in the army, and somewhat in leading positions.
(and ofcource the tiste andii)

Examples against this: The wickens. Almost any tribe in seven cities...
no female warchief was ever mentioned, the only female leader was
shaik and she only gained that position thanks to the prophet card.

That's true, I can't think of any prominent women among the Wickans apart from Nil/Nether (whichever was the girl). And women seem to enjoy a rather low rung on the ladder across all of Seven Cities - though I do seem to remember one of the Falah'd (city governors pre-Malazan invasion) being a woman - she was tortured by someone (a Malazan) and earned a mercy killing from someone else, but the details escape me.

Quote

The tiste edur have male leaders.
Also MT only mentioned one letherii female in a high position; the
queen. No others, so equality isnt really depicted in letherii.

There were strong female characters among the Edur - Mrs. Sengar, Mayen (in a way). And there certainly were among the Letherii - Seren Padec had a high position, there is Preda Twilight (some kind of regional general), and Atri-Preda Yovis (not the right spelling, but she seemed to be the commander-in-chief of the entire Letherii army). And there was the Concubine and the Queen. Now, they were all strong characters, but they (not all) tended to fall more into the traditional female roles - wife, concubine, healer. Certainly more restricted than the easy equality seen in Malazan areas.

Quote

Also we havnt seen any tiste loisan females. And i havnt seen any female
imass clan chief.

Well we've seen, what, four Tiste Liosan now? And that's not counting Osric & L'oric. Though I would go with a gut feeling on the Liosan and say they are probably a bunch of conservative authoritarian types who probably keep their women on a short leash. Just based on the vibe you get from the inept but kind-of-fascist/Liosan-supremacist raiding party, and the way L'oric went all "family-values" on Scillara when she tried to ditch the brat.

And the Imass - we've only really gotten to know two of the Imass chiefs - Logros & Kron. It's quite possible some the others (there were roughly ten Imass tribes, right?) were female. And there were definitely female Bonecasters - Kilava and Olar Ethil. The Imass seem pretty egalitarian as a matter of necessity, they couldn't afford to have anyone who wasn't capable of giving Jaghut a beat down.

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On the physical in this world and probebly in eriksons world.
Males are better in fighting. Not just in body.
And all of it is thanks to testosteron. Testosteron also affects how
Your brain works. Thanks to good old tessy we males are more tactical,
Single minded, stronger and faster and most importantly; more
competetive!

Come on now, it is SE's world and he's provided plenty of examples of women who are more than capable of matching men in battle. The Malazan Heavies, Apsalar, Lady Envy, Adjunct Lorn. His is not a world where women are intrinsically inferior to men.

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Excpecially the singlemindedness and competative nature of men allow
them to advance faster and... better then females.

The bad side of testosteron is that men are more extreeme.
More men are scientists... but more men are also alcoholics...
Males generaly have the highest IQ´s... but also the lowest.

All in all, males are less average then females.

That's not really got anything to do with these books...but it did make me think of Iskaral Pust & Mogora for some reason.

Quote

BTW funny side note: the smartest human alive today is some women in america, a IQ of 223 or something.

That would be Marilyn Vos Savant?

[Illuyankas]

What an apt surname.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Yeah, I thought she was a joke at first, because she turned up as a character in a Dilbert strip. Turned out she was real. vos Savant is actually her mother's maiden name (she thinks sons should get the paternal surname and daughters get to preserve the maternal name, it's just a coincidence that that makes "the worlds most intelligent person" Mrs. Savant).

This is her column, where she answers people's questions (believe me, she's good)

http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/20...007/Ask_Marilyn