[Sir Thursday]

During my re-read of MT, I noticed frequent references to the past of the Beddict family, particularly the mother. We never truly discover the tragic (at least that is how it is portrayed) story of the brothers Beddict's parent's deaths, apart from the fact that it was motivated by a debt of some sort. There are also hints that the mother is now undead (she is known to have been helped out by Selush, and in the conversation in which this comes up it is intimated that this occured after her death [no page reference atm.]). Can anyone else shed some light on what happened?

Vox

[Arkmam]

Doesn't Selush work with corpses usually? I mean, really dead corpses. Make them look pretty for funerals and such. Could be that Selush did that for their mother perhaps.

[Sir Thursday]

OK, I looked up a quote:

MT MMPB pg. 256 said:

Padderunt: A lost cause. Just like you Tehol Beddict. I knew you mother - what would she say seeing you now?

Tehol: You knew her corpse, you old fool. Before that we'd never met you.

Padderunt: Think she didn't tell me all about herself anyway?

It doesn't seem as conclusive when I look at it now...but interesting nonetheless. If she was undead, it doesn't sound like Tehol knew it...

Vox

[Sir Thursday]

potsherds said:

Hmmm, I fininshed reading MT a few weeks ago, and when I read that passage, I thought it simply meant that Selush could get a lot of information out of the state of a corpse. I didn't think she meant an undead woman actually speaking to her.

And I'm not sure what the Beddict tragedy was either. I hope someone can answer your question.

Your interpretation would probably make more sense than mine...I think I'm reading things a mite too literally...

Nevertheless, the Beddict tragedy remains unknown (to me at least). I do seem to remember something that hinted at suicide by the father, although no quote at the moment.

Vox

[Dark Mac]

At least one of them committed suicide, but I thought it was the mother.

Interestingly, the story is lifted quite substantially from Arthur Miller's "The Price". In that, the father lost all of his money and the mother committed suicide, while one son became a police officer and the other became a rich doctor.

[GingerBreadMan]

I thought the father was the sucidal one while the mother was the smarts. The father lost all the money and then committed suicide.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think it was left ambigious for a reason.

My impression, for what it's worth, is that the mother was the schemer, operating through the father to build family fortune/power/empire. Somehow the father failed, ruin was brought on the family, etc, both died.

Selush's words were clearly about dressing the corpse - she was an undertaker, her primary business was preparing the dead for funerals, not giving makeovers to the undead. No doubt she could tell the manner of Mama Beddict's death.

Though I can't remember any actual info about the father's death, topping yourself is usually what the head of the household does when something bad happens in situations like that. Maybe it was a murder-suicide (rampant speculation).

[GardenGnome]

The father was a great swordsman, much like Hull or Brys (Brys thinks Hull is the one who most closely resembles their father, while Tehol think Brys is the most like their father.) Mentioned in one of the conversations between Tehol and Brys, but I can't for the life of me find the exact passage just now...

Further, it seems the parents somehow became heavily indebted, but the mother was quite alike Tehol, and could have brought it all down - the entire Lether economy. Atleast, that's how I read it, it could also mean she could have worked a way out of the debt. But, for some reason she chose not to, and all that is said is that she feared for her husband, and what he would do. In the end, he commited suicide (that last shameful act - atleast, that's how I understood it, allthough it could be a homicide-suicide as was suggested by someone somewhere).

I doubt the mother is an undead, as both the mother and father seems to be interred in the family tomb - reference: Brys asks Tehol when he last visited the family tomb, Tehol says not in a long time, he had his own way of honouring them.

[Nade]

Just finished reading MT today (it's so nice to see some new ppl here since I didnt check this forum before).

My question is regarding the betrayal of Hull Beddict by Lether. Does it have to do with the fact that he was like the Letherii "ambassador," so to speak, to the other races/nations that Lether would end up conquering through debt manipulation (and he felt used in a sense), or was the betrayal something else. Im not sure if it was specifically mentioned or perhaps I read it and didnt realize that was it.

Could someone clarify? Thanks in advance.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Hull betrayed Lether when he tried to push the Edur into declaring war on his country (even though he was only peripheral, it would've happened anyway - in fact, his whole character was peripheral to the story).

His earlier "betrayals" were of the various tribes, but these were carried out in the interests of Lether.

Strangely, the Nerek punished him for the former rather than the latter, though it was the latter which destroyed their culture.

[Illuyankas]

The Nerek are only one people. The Edur could destroy the world. What would have people done to the Eight who summoned the CG if they knew what he would do?

[Nade]

It seems my question wasnt understood properly. Let me ask it again.

There are certain instances in the book (from the perspective of several characters, seren, buruk, Tehol, Brys and Hull himself) wherein it is mention that it was Hull Beddict who was betrayed, by Lether or something. This is the reason he cites for joining the Edur camp. I recall one instance where Tehol was thinking and said something to the effect of 'Hull who was cruelly betrayed by Letheras' or something to that effect.

How was he betrayed? why? Is it even mentioned specifically or not? (just in case it was and I didnt even realize that was the reason, or it was between the lines and my mind was too slow at that passage).

~~

Pg 499 - 500

Rhulad leaned forward. 'You would betray your own people. Why?'

'Vengeance,' Hull Beddict replied.

The word chilled Udinaas.

'Sire,' Hull continued, 'my people betrayed me. Long ago. I have long awaited an opportunity such as this one.'

'And so, vengeance. A worthy sentiment?'

'Emperor, there is nothing else left for me.'

[Illuyankas]

He went to the outlying tribes and thought he was intergrating them into Lether society as equals, took their bonding rituals and joined their ranks. Then Lether came over and crushed them completely, using his informations to wage a series of conquests, not what he was told or expected. That's why he left.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Right nade, sorry. Had the betrayal in your question the wrong way round, would've said what Illuyankas already has.

It does drive home how, well, stupid, Hull was. I don't really understand or have any sympathy for that character, he's the most serious flaw in MT (that and Seren Padec just being plain dull for much of the her story).

[Nade]

I'll have to sort of agree. Perhaps Hull's purpose was to show that revenge is not the way and to basically try and move the story along at certain points. As in, largely thanks to him the Edur knew where to strike at the Letherii defense. Possibly also a foil character for Tehol and Brys.

Seren was pretty dull, but I found she became a bit more interesting after the unfortunate demise of Buruk. Also I want to see her develop her Mockra sensitivity, if indeed shes got one.

My favourite character in the book would have to be Tehol Beddict. That guy, on top of being a genius (like I think his character literally is a genius), is sooooo relaxed. I also appreciate the humility he displays in his 'I've been ruined' act. He just seems to take it all in stride while still able to plan further stuff and execute it. Awesome character, I really hope to see him in future, him and his brilliant schemes. I really enjoyed reading his sections of the book.

[tiam]

i was confused by the Nerek killing at the endd but it seemed it was from order of the eresal so it had meaning. I just took it due to it was his fault (indirectly) that the Nerek were conquered

[Sir Thursday]

The Nerek killed Hull because he sided with the Edur and hence the Crippled God. I believe the assassin says something to that effect as he killed him - something along the lines of "You've made your choice, I'm afraid"...although I don't have the book next to me to get a quote.

Vox

[Nade]

I think it's something like "there is no forgiveness left in you..." or something like that.

Btw, I was hoping to see Tehol's plan come to fruition, as in Im not sure what he was going to do, but it had something to do with collapsing the Tolls. I just love his brillance! I really hope to see him in future books.

[Sir Thursday]

I had some time on my hands, so I dug up a quote. Here's what the Nerek says:

Steven Erikson in Midnight Tides MMPB pgs. 875-876 said:

"You have been judged, Hull Beddict. I am sorry."

"You chose to walk with the Tiste Edur emperor. You chose...betrayal."

"We thought we knew your heart, Hull Beddict, but now we see that it has turned black. It is poisoned, because forgiveness is not within you."

Nice call Nade.

Vox