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The second casting of the tiles

#1 User is offline   namo 

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 05:26 PM

Hey,

I wanted to debate who's who in the second casting of the tiles by Feather Witch (p.291 in the small paperback) :

[Beast Hold]
lords: we know...
Crone: Crone !
the rest: no idea.

[Eleint Hold]
Queen: Tiam
Consort: the otataral dragon !
(this is my pet theory. I know Pearl said it was female, but I decided I knew better than him. And "writhes upon a tree and whispers with madness of the time of his release" seems appropriate. And since it balances all magic, it has to be the counterpart to Tiam, who's in a way the Queen of Magic)
Liege: some dragon inside Dragnipur
Knight: Rake - funny that's he's also Knight of Darkness
Blood-Drinker: Draconus
Sister: Nightchill
Lady: ?? Could it be Envy ? But the others mentioned are Elder Gods. And where would Spite fit ?
Path-Shaper: Krul

[Empty Hold]
Kings: Ezgaral whatever & Rhulad
Mistresses: Seren Pedac & Mayen ?
Wanderers: ?
Walkers: ?
Saviours: Brys /Trull ?
Betrayers: Hull/Udinaas ?

Of course, as always with Erikson, most of it cannot be decided once and for all. This is why I'd like to benefit from the results of your creative thinking... Feel free to tell me I'm stupid. :D
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#2 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 05:48 PM

Draconus is inside Dragnipur, you know. And all the references to Ruin drinking far deeper of Tiam's blood than Rake suggests Blooddrinker. Lady Envy and Sister Spite would fit Lady and Sister, Consort could be Scabby.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
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#3 User is offline   namo 

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 06:14 PM

Illuyankas said:

Draconus is inside Dragnipur, you know. And all the references to Ruin drinking far deeper of Tiam's blood than Rake suggests Blooddrinker. Lady Envy and Sister Spite would fit Lady and Sister, Consort could be Scabby.


I know, I know - but I had decided he was Blood-Drinker... however, Ruin fits better. You're definitely right about the Lady and the Sister (I had forgotten about "Sister" Spite), even though the proximity of Draconus and Krul called for their sister.
I wonder if the ambiguities were meant to be.

Any clues on the Empty Hold ?
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#4 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 06:24 PM

Beast Hold

Crone: I would maybe suggest the Mhybe, given her central role in the Beast hold/Imass realm and her miserable crone existence. But that raises time-line issues...(just reread it, it definitely does suggest Crone rather than the Mhybe, oh well)

Elder?: "Age has clawed the face and gouged the eyes of the Elder. He is scarred and battle-ravaged" doesn't remind me of any characters, can't think of any blind ones?

Seer: "Seer's mouth moves yet there are none to hear." - pass (total guess - the QoD has powers of divination...)

Shaman: "Shaman wails the weft of the dead in fields of bones, yet believes none of the patterns he fashions from those scattered remains" - umm, Urko? Can't think of anyone who uses bones...

Tracker: "Tracker walks his steps assured and purposeful, to belie that he wanders lost." - Trake while lost in Soletaken form? or (BH spoiler)
Spoiler



Dragon Hold

Queen is Tiam (surprise!)

Consort: either the O-Dragon (like the Otataral reasoning there), or...well, I'm still holding out for the "child of indescribable terror" spawned by the dragons in MT prologue here. I really want to know who that referred to. The male reference is a big point against the O-Dragon though.

Liege is Draconus "The Liege is lost, dragging chains in a world where to walk is to endure, and where to halt is to be devoured." (though I think Draconus also gets mention as Consort elsewhere, the description here just has to be him)

Knight is Rake (widely assumed, particularly due to the "vengeance" reference - that was Rake's sword before he gained Dragnipur, the one that Andarist wielded and Traveller took)

"Gate rages with wild fire." - an person or a thing?

"Locqui Wyval waits." the Wyval within Udinaas, presumably.

Sister: you would assume this was Nightchills position, but consider - Envy & Spite are invariably referred to as Sister Spite, Lady Envy, and they are both Soletaken Eleint. It's possible Nightchill has no position in the Dragon Hold, and I would definitely say Sister & Lady refer to Spite & Envy. This is backed by the description:

"The Lady and the Sister dance around each other, each on her own side of the world"

which suggests a close association, which doesn't seem to exist between Nightchill and Envy.

Blood-Drinker is Silchas Ruin. "Blood-Drinker waits as well, waits to be found" ie waits to be freed from the Azath. (as for the drinking - Ruin drank deepest of Tiam...by far)

Path-Shaper: K'rul - agree with that, since he's constantly referred to as that and similar phrases by several characters in the books.

"Path-Shaper knows fever in his fell blood and staggers on the edge of the precipice" which is clearly K'rul, his flesh, the warrens, suffering under the CG's infection.

Empty Hold - if we are thinking Letherii & Edur counterparts, then I would suggest:

Watchers: "the Watchers stand in place as if made of stone! Their faces are masks of horror." suggests Trull (horrified, but not very stony), Fear (stands in place?)

Mistresses: "the Mistresses dance with thwarted desire" - definitely Seren (Seren & Trull, up a tree...) and Mayen? don't know if her supposed desire (for Fear?) is thwarted or not...

Wanderer: "the Wanderers have broken through the ice and cold darkness comes with its deadly embrace." which strongly brings Hood to mind (Raest calls him Death Wanderer, he is King of Hold of Ice, when Gothos' ice ritual expires he breaks through and brings Lether into his dominion), but what does he have to do with Lether at this point in the book? Can't think of anyone better though. Perhaps the Warlock King is the other, there is some speculation he was using corrupted KG as his power source, hence "cold darkness"?

Walker: "the Walkers cannot halt in the growing torrent that pulls them ever onward." don't know, someone swept along by events...Hull?

"the Saviours face one another, and both are doomed, and in broken reflection stand the Betrayers, and this is what lies before us, before us all."

Saviour: I think the Ceda should have a place in one of these - counterpart the Warlock King - they do both fight each other, and the Ceda was certainly doomed...is Hannan Mosag also doomed? Alternatively Trull and Brys, though they never face each other (in combat). Again, Brys was doomed to die, and Trull doomed to exile...

Betrayer: if we go with Trull & Brys above, then the Betrayers (broken reflections = brothers) are clearly Fear/Rhulad and Hull. Leaning towards Fear, since he betrayed the Edur cause by running away. Udinaas isn't an Edur, so I don't think he could be in this, nor is he a reflection of anyone else that I can think of. But then again, if I'm right to say Hood as Wanderer, then Udinaas is fair game too.
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#5 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 09:16 PM

wanderer maybe binadas as he broke through the ice. probably not but woth a thought
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Posted 29 April 2006 - 11:22 PM

The lady and the sister...
Menandore and Sheltatha Lore..
Dawn and dusk? each on her own side of the world..
then there's that bit in MT... Udinaas vision...'The Lady.. she comes'... and Menandore appears...
And they are both older than Envy and Spite..

I still have Scabs down as Consort... we know his soul is imprisoned in eternal torment somewhere..

Gate... that's a tough one... rages with wild fire...doesn't sound like Olar Ethil... or Osserc either.
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#7 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 11:38 PM

Gate could be Menandore, as I am still sure it's Envy and Spite.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
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#8 User is offline   namo 

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 11:54 PM

I don' think the Gate is a person, which is why I omitted it : it is said several times along the series that a dragon's breath is a gate (to a warren) - well, possibly their blood too (tBH). I really like Erikson's idea : for once, the fire (some) dragons breathe isn't created by some weird chemical reaction in their stomachs, but by accessing a warren.
For instance, Rake unleashes KG through his draconean mouth in MoI.

Interesting, that Menandore and Dapple also fit.
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#9 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 12:15 AM

So, does anyone else like Hood for the Wanderer? Except for the inconvenient fact that he's not Letherii or Edur, he's a perfect fit.
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#10 User is offline   Dark Mac 

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 01:12 AM

I thought that Gate was more likely the Wound caused by the KCCM/Scabby that was chasing the Dragnipur Wagon. That Wound is fairly relevant to MT's plot, and it's also close to Draconus. If I remember its description correctly, it also rages quite strongly.
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#11 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 01:37 AM

It sounds like you are confusing several gates

a) the gate to between KG and Chaos that lies within Dragnipur - the chains are pulling the wagon away from this ever-advancing portal (this portal has absolutely nothing to do with the KCCM or Scabby, I'm pretty sure)

:D the gates over which Scabby says that the Edur & Andii have wrested control from the KCCM in MT prologue (not necessarily KCCM created). I think he meant portals from the Tiste warrens to the Malazworld, or KCCM-land as it was then.

c) the rent at Morn (maybe?) can't remember what caused that, but it had something to do with Pannion's Matron.

The first two have got nothing to do with each other. I'm fairly sure that Dragnipur was forged before the MT prologue occured, but then again the date of the Tiste invasion led by Scabby & Ruin is totally unknown. If any of the above are the Gate in FW's reading, it would be the first, since it has the most to do with the Dragon Hold (within sword forged by the Liege, imprisons the Liege, wielded by the Knight). Not sure if "rages with wild fire" is consistent with that gate though.
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#12 User is offline   Folken 

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 02:14 AM

Dragnipur couldn't have been forged by the MT prol...or atleast its not entirely possible. The KCC were still around for one, and humans weren't present atleast thats the impression I get from the fact that the KCC were still around. And Dragnipur was nearing completion when the K'rul et al. went to punish Kallor, by which time the KCC were clearly gone
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#13 User is offline   namo 

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 03:27 AM

I forgot to add that the Gate is (again, double meaning) also the Gate to Starvald Demelain (closed by the otataral dragon ? wait, that's another thread :Erm: ). Supposedly closed, but it seems Udinaas, FW - and Menandore before - reach it passing through... a gate/path of fire. Haha, starts to almost make sense. (Or I'm mad )

And actually, the Tlan Imass mentions a list of mixed-blood Eleint - good candidates for the jobs in the Hold : they include everybody alread cited, excluding Envy and Spite but including Sheltata Lore and Osric.

And I like Hood as the Wanderer, except I can't find him a counterpart...
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#14 User is offline   Folken 

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 03:34 AM

Why would Hood be Wanderer? Thats in the Empty Hold, one supposedly if memory serves correctly is held by Humans now. Seeing as how Hood is already Death aspected and the Hold of Death just came into being and he's already claimed rights over it.
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#15 User is offline   Dark Mac 

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 12:26 PM

Dolorous Menhir said:

It sounds like you are confusing several gates

a) the gate to between KG and Chaos that lies within Dragnipur - the chains are pulling the wagon away from this ever-advancing portal (this portal has absolutely nothing to do with the KCCM or Scabby, I'm pretty sure)

:D the gates over which Scabby says that the Edur & Andii have wrested control from the KCCM in MT prologue (not necessarily KCCM created). I think he meant portals from the Tiste warrens to the Malazworld, or KCCM-land as it was then.

c) the rent at Morn (maybe?) can't remember what caused that, but it had something to do with Pannion's Matron.

The first two have got nothing to do with each other. I'm fairly sure that Dragnipur was forged before the MT prologue occured, but then again the date of the Tiste invasion led by Scabby & Ruin is totally unknown. If any of the above are the Gate in FW's reading, it would be the first, since it has the most to do with the Dragon Hold (within sword forged by the Liege, imprisons the Liege, wielded by the Knight). Not sure if "rages with wild fire" is consistent with that gate though.


The portal chasing the KG wagon is the Wound that was created by the KCCM Matrons in revenge against Scabby that will eventually put an end to the Malazan world. The link to Scabby is why I thought it might be related to the Gate in FW's reading.

Hood would be the Wanderer because he wandered away from the Letherii continent when Gothos froze death, and now he's wandering back. And as DM mentioned, he's the one breaking through the barrier of Ice.
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#16 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 12:41 PM

That's strange, I never connected the Chaos threatening KG within Dragnipur and the matron-death spell destroying Mother Dark before. But now that you mention it, it does seem obvious.

And as others note, the forging of Dragnipur almost certainly did come after the Edur entered the world.

Guess I was wrong then. How do you explain the long time interval between the death of that matron - and casting of death spell - and the forging of Dragnipur, given that one took place at the end of the KCCM era, and in the time between then and the forging the eras of the Jaghut, then the Imass, and finally the humans must have taken place. Did the spell take that long to start seriously threatening MD? Or did it just take that long for Draconus to make it?

(and if people are buying Hood as Wanderer, then I would suggest the CG as counterpart - Rhulad's sword is found through the ice of the glacier, and he has certainly brought death to Lether.)
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#17 User is offline   Dark Mac 

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 08:30 PM

In MoI, Draconus talks about how the KG gate was free to move about before Dragnipur was created, and that's why Dragnipur has to be shattered. Draconus thought that Dragnipur would help, but in reality it hasn't.

And yes, Draconus was working on it for a long time, presumably since around the time of Scabby's skull-shattering.
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#18 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 10:00 PM

Draconus was working on Dragnipur since 'the time of All Darkness' which presumably before MD made everything else (the Elders were first, after all), so either he changed it's original plan after Kallor's curse and the chaos isn't related to the KCCM deathwound, or he changed it twice and it is related.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
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Posted 30 April 2006 - 10:39 PM

About the timeline, FW's castings are divinations, of which some refer to the (then) future events in Genabackis. The Rent in Morn however doesn't seem to fit.

There was a casting where saviour and betrayer were occupied by the same persons. So I think they are Trull and Udinaas. They both betrayed the ones they were supposed to support, Rhulad, to save their people and Wu from the CG. Details can be found in MT, which I borrowed to friends, so you will have to go look for references yourself. Sorry.

EDIT: Elder, can he possible be Onrack...
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#20 User is offline   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 04:28 PM

Ah my favourite debate, surfaces again, the Encyclopedia Malazica has feather witches readings for you to look at if you want here

My personal theories, the Empty hold seems to change from when we first see it, to the seocnd time, Udinass refers to it as:

'The Hold that had existed, unseen, at the very beginning. The Empty Hold - heart of Letherii worship - that was at the very centre of the vast spiral of realms. Home to the Throne that knew no King, home to the Wanderer Knight, and to the Mistress who waited still, alone in her bed of dreams. To the Watcher, who witnessed all, and the Walker, who patrolled borders not even he could see. To the Saviour, whose outstretched hand was never grasped. And, finally, to the Betrayer, whose loving embrace destroyed all it touched.' (MT, p.31, UK Trade)

In that reading the throne is empty, the Mistress seems to be the QoD, the Walker seems to be edgewalker, the Wander Knight is probably traveller, the rest I'll leave you to debate on.

In Feather Witches reading the positions seem to have changed, reflecting now the conflict on the Letherii continent as the two forces contest with each other.

The Watchers stand in place as if made of stone! Their faces are masks of horror.

Not sure on this one, presumably a member of the Edur and vice versa a member of the humans who are shocked at what is happening, but can do nothing to stop it... Hannan Mossag or Fear and the First Eunuch, Brys or Tehol come to mind, all of whom desire peace but could not achieve it.

The Mistresses dance with thwarted desire
Seren and Mayen

The Wanderers have broken through the ice and cold darkness comes with its deadly embrace
To me this suggests the Jheck and the andii spirits, both of whom have come from the icefields of the North. Though it could equally refer solely to the andii spirits, as it fits them more exactly, and the andii are split between those who MUST follow the Edur, and those who work agaisnt them and are not bound


The Walkers cannot halt in the growing torrent that pulls them ever onward

Hull, who encouraged the war and now cannot stop it, and seems tto eb identified with walkers, and possibly king Ezgara Diskanar, who also could not prevent the war and now the Letherii rush ever onwars into it, though that's tenuous. Binidas possibly? he's also a walker like Trull and one of the Brothers Brys? also dragged along by the war

The Saviours -face one another, and both are doomed, and in broken reflection so stand the Betrayers, and this is what lies before us, before us all

This is a difficult one, Trull seems an obvious contender for the position of Betrayer, and plausibly saviour as well. Rhulad also seems to fit both these roles, as figure who has betrayed the Edur to the CG, yet is seen as the saviour.

Other's who could fit in here, include Udinass or the Ceda, but I prefer the ocupation of the two roles by Trull and Rhulad alternatly, for the pleasing symmetry if nothing else.

So:
The Empty Throne: empty
The Watchers: (Nifidas, the First Eunuch?, Brys? Tehol?)/(Hannan Mossag? Fear?)
The Mistresses: Seren Pedac/Mayen
The Wanderers: The Andii spirits/The Jheck (or possibly solely the andii)
The Walkers: Hull/(Ezgara Diskanar? Binidas? Brys?)
The Saviours: Trull/Rhulad
The Betrayers: Rhulad/Trull

The references to the brothers suggest the Sengar brothers occupy many of the positions or those associated with them, and a possible pleasing symmetry would be to have the Beddict bortehrs associated with the positions.

What do you think?

I'd say the following is the most likely, with one of the two sets of brothers occupying the majority of the positions:

The Empty Throne: empty
The Watchers: (Tehol or Brys)/Fear
The Mistresses: Seren Pedac/Mayen
The Wanderers: The Andii spirits
The Walkers: Hull/(Binidas or Brys)
The Saviours: Trull/Rhulad
The Betrayers: Rhulad/Trull
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