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Opinion or Fact?

#21 User is offline   Brys 

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 06:21 PM

So was Peake. Actually, wait, I make a mistake- Peake wasn't writing for an audience. Peake's stated aim was to smash windows. Tolkien's stated aim was to write a fairy tale. That to me is one of the main reasons I rate Peake so much higher than Tolkien. And Erikson doesn't take the consoling, escapist route designed for the masses, which Tolkien (unitentionally) did. As for worldbuilding, I concede that Tolkien's unmatched. Moorcock's criticisms are of Tolkien himself as much as those who come after him. It is the very tone that Moorcock criticises in epic Pooh, and that was as evident in Tolkien as in his much weaker predecessors.

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but a corresponding lack of depth to those races in many key areas


I think that it's less a lack of depth, but a lack of overt depth. As we all know, Erikson doesn't spoonfeed the reader. But there is a lot of information on almost all the races, with a fleshed out history, but it's very spread out and doesn't come in chunks, as in Tolkien. Its a different style - but for example, the Jaghut have as much history behind them as Tolkien's Sindar. It's a very close match, but I would say that Tolkien just has the edge in worldbuilding.
As for Gene Wolfe's essay, it wasn't bad by any means, but it didn't really say a lot new. It was a very personal, positive take on Tolkien's writing. Moorcock's was a more impersonal (in parts at least), negative take on Tolkien. Both are decent essays.

As for emotional power, I feel that Erikson far surpasses Tolkien. Tolkien's characters are never in real danger, because it's clear he will not let them die. The same isn't true of Erikson's (ok, there is the revival issue of a couple of characters, but generally they aren't really being brought back to life but a new being is created with some similar characteristics), and I was genuinely shocked by some of the events of the Malazan series, and depressed. Can't ever say that for LotR, and the strongest emotion it ever invokes is one of mild melancholy.


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This moorcock I think needs to re-read the entire series of LoTR and HoME.


Have you even read Epic Pooh? That's a pretty dismissive statement to the most influential living fantasy writer.
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Posted 25 April 2006 - 07:32 PM

All of this comes down to misunderstanding Tolkien's work. I don't think Tolkien would have considered himself a novelist, and I don't think he can rightly be called an author in the same sense that we call Erikson an author. LotR is meant to be read the way you would read epic, not the way you would read epic fantasy. If it fails next to actual epic, that's something Tolkien might have cared about. He's rolling in his grave being compared to modern fantasy writers though, I assure you.

Now, about Tolkien's world. It grew out of a combination of things. First, Tolkien's love of languages. He invented languages for his own amusement, and then created people to use them. Then he made a history to go along with those languages, that accounts for their similarities and differences. Some people underestimate what a massive undertaking this is, and the staggering level of genius it requires. There's a reason no fantasy author has come close to Tolkien since, and that's that no fantasy author that I know of could rightly be said to possess staggering genius. Tolkien, on the other hand, was a master of languages, and among the foremost minds in the history of his field (philology).

Second, Tolkien was an expert on mythologies, especially of Northern Europe. The mythology of his world, ie the Silmarillion, is so natural, it reads like long forgotten lore of this world. No one else has ever come close to this either, because they always screw it up by letting their modern sensibility come into it. Tolkien crafted a complex mythology that passes the supreme test - it is not entirely consistent. He didn't write a D&D manual, he wrote myths the way he read them -- fractured, inconsistent, and elusive. This all gives the illusion that his work represents a once living world. Erikson lets some elements of this come into his work, most likely due to his knowledge of archaeology and anthropology, but his mythology is weak. It doesn't read like genuine mythology, because it's constantly undercut by his post-modern sensibilities and his insistence on grounding his characters in the real world, not the other world. Which brings me to another of the advantages of Tolkien's mythology. What many criticize as weak characterization, I would call classical characterization. His characaters aren't meant to be people, they're meant to represent something. Ultimately the plot of LotR is irrelevant, because you're not meant to read the plot, but the themes.

The third thing that Tolkien's world grew out of is his world view, in particular his belief in good and evil. That's unfashionable now. You don't see it in Erikson at all. For Tolkien, a devout Catholic, good and evil were very real, and confirmed twice in his lifetime. He fought at the Somme, and lost most of his friends to the evil that is mechanized warfare, which is itself the inevitable byproduct of industrialism. Then, later in his life, he watched history repeat itself, only more horrifyingly. An evil empire actually came into existence during the 1930's, and threatened to destroy everything good and beautiful in the world. At least, that's the only conclusion a man like Tolkien, with his religion and his interest in mythology, could arrive at. So he deals with evil in his work as a real force that must be defeated.

Now, in order to appreciate how evil is defeated in LotR, you have to set aside your sensibilities and desire for action. Front and centre throughout the book (it's one book, people) is the idea that victory against evil cannot be won on the battlefield. So while Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are running around getting in fights everywhere, they're achieving nothing compared to Frodo, who must overcome the temptation of his burden. Frodo (and Sam, for that matter) represents innocence and purity. If anyone in Middle-Earth could resist the temptation of the Ring, it is Frodo. Frodo desires no power, no wealth, no fame. Frodo is better than any of us. And get this: he still fails the test when put to it, or at least would have had the choice not been taken from him. In the end, for all Frodo's goodness, even he couldn't resist the Ring, and that's about the most chilling thing I can imagine.

Frodo is not Christ, you see. That's the key. He is a Christ figure, you're supposed to think of Christ, but like the Biblical prophets of the Old Testament, for all his purity and for all that he is better than all others, he is not Christ, and he gives in to temptation. The comfort is that evil destroys itself. Gollum, consumed by the evil of the Ring since he gave into temptation immediately, destroys both himself and the Ring. Frodo survives, the greatest person in Middle-Earth, but he has been destroyed himself by its evil. He was taken by evil and he was never the same afterward.

Ultimately, this makes for a very poor novel. It's hard to read at times, especially if you want it to be a novel. But it's not. You don't read Tolkien, exactly, you study him. And you have to be prepared for the reality of the book, which is that good and evil are real, and that the book has something to say about them. Tolkien fails at his attempts at poetry, it's true. He also fails in the way his language fluctuates between the children's story, the epic, and yes, even the novel on occasion. But this is only a problem if you are looking for a certain type of prose, the type that we're taught to appreciate with every novel we're force-fed as school children. And of course, certain storytelling elements don't conform to our sensibilities of proper pacing and such.

So I can see why some people don't appreciate Tolkien. I think they're totally wrong, of course, but I guess I can understand it if you're a fan of fantasy novels. Tolkien didn't write fantasy novels, though, and would disapprove thoroughly of MBotF.

But hey, he's dead now. I like MBotF, a lot, it just doesn't even come close to Tolkien. Not in the same league, because it's not even playing the same sport.
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Posted 25 April 2006 - 07:33 PM

Here's another essay by Mieville where he talks some more about tolkien (and about his own books).

http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/11/with-o...-and-revolution

Quoting 2 sections:

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1.1: In Grudging Defence of Tolkien

John H.’s analogy, I think, is a good one: Tolkien is an outsider artist. His genius lay in his neurotic, self-contained, paranoid creation of a secondary world. That act of profoundly radical geekery reversed the hitherto-existing fantasy subcreation: unlike Eddison’s Mercury and Leiber’s Newhon, Middle Earth comes before the stories that occur within it. It’s precisely this approach, the subject of most scorn from the ‘mainstream’, which is Tolkien’s most truly radical and seminal moment. His literalised fantastic of setting means an impossible world which believes in itself, and has no truck with the tedious symbolism which mars so much ‘magic realism’, for example, in which the fantastic does not trust itself, and which the author is keen to stress is ‘really about’ insert-theme-here.

Tolkien’s ‘cordial dislike’ of allegory does not, as some of his followers, most of his detractors, and the man himself seems to think, imply a fiction divorced from reality – a fiction ‘about’ nothing real. What it means is a fantasy that is not reducible to a kind of philistine, simplistic, moralising, fabular representation of soi-disant ‘meaningful’ concerns, as with fiction that despises its own fantastic. Dispensing with allegory cannot mean dispensing with metaphor:[4] fantasy that believes itself is about itself and also about other things.

Fundamentally, that is why I think fantasy at its best doesn’t have to choose between John H.’s two poles: political economy vs. puppeteering expressionism. Because the realism of concern and the weird of expression are each their own end, but through metaphor, that magic dialectical glue, they are also, in a critical fantasy, functions of each other. (None of which, of course, is to say that I’ve got it right).[5]

This is not, of course, to repudiate any of the rude things I’ve said about Tolkien’s themes, prose, women, class politics, moralism, etc. In focusing on the way fantasy thinks of itself, the way a self-believing fantasy impacts the reader, I’m arguing to nurture the baby of Tolkien’s phenomenology of fantasy while chucking out the bathwater of his ideas. It’s very dirty by now.

1.2. An Admission on War.

I want to agree with John H. over Tolkien and the war. My criticism of him as falling prey to a boys-own-adventurism was misplaced. I still hold that Tolkien’s battles are ‘morally disordered’, but as John H. says, ‘the disorder is of a different order’.

Instead, the overwhelming tone reads as a kind of melancholic glorying, faintly elegiac, Tragic-with-a-capital-T, with swords a-flashing and valiant steeds a-galloping, not Just William but Light Brigade. Rather than the product of never having seen modern war, this in fact seems to me an attempt to forget. Tolkien’s modernophobia manifests in the attempted invocation of a nobility he knows doesn’t exist.

It’s interesting to compare him to that other great outsider artist of the fantastic, Lovecraft. Though Lovecraft never saw war, he did see, quite clearly, the social chaos that the First World War ushered in. The ‘Great War’ was the most shattering event in Modernity’s conception of itself as a rational, humane system: the paradox is that Tolkien, who experienced that carnage first-hand, attempted to turn his back on the truth of post-traumatic Modernity, whereas Lovecraft was thousands of miles away from the heart of horror, but was a neurotically acute barometer of society’s psychic disorders.

These different approaches manifest in their fantasies. To put it with unfair crudeness, Tolkien’s is the fantasy of a man murmuring to himself ‘it’s alright, it’s alright’, but not believing it; Lovecraft’s of a man shrieking ‘none of it is alright, nor will it ever be’. Unconvinced forgetting versus psychotic fixation: both are the results of trauma.


And the 30s and 40s are hardly some literary stone age where good characterization hadnt been invented yet or something.

Edit:

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If it fails next to actual epic, that's something Tolkien might have cared about.


Well, thats what the epic pooh essay talks about. He's trying for an epic but fails at it...

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There is no happy ending to the Romance of Robin Hood, however, whereas Tolkien, going against the grain of his subject matter, forces one on us - as a matter of policy:

And lastly there is the oldest and deepest desire, the Great Escape: the Escape from Death. Fairy stories provide many examples and modes of this - which might be called the genuine escapist, or (I would say) fugitive spirit. But so do other stories (notably those of scientific inspiration), and so do other studies... But the "consolation" of fairy-tales has another aspect than the imaginative satisfaction of ancient desires. For more important is the Consolation of the Happy Ending.

J. R. R. Tolkien, "On Fairy Stories"

The great epics dignified death, but they did not ignore it, and it is one of the reasons why they are superior to the artificial romances of which Lord of the Rings is merely one of the most recent.


And i do agree about the mythology. There sure is something magical about tolkien's world the same way there is something magical about beowulf or siegfried, which is what makes it in some way special.

Edit2:

As for the rest, sure you can study it and try to look past the mostly bad writing and plotting and whatnot and discover the ideas of a man who when faced with modernity was trying to flee to hobbiton and who tried to stick to his ill conceived notions even when reality clashed against them. But why would you want to? Might as well study goodkind.
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#24 Guest_Sonnyboy_*

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 08:13 PM

What Moorcock fails to understand in his essay is that Tolkien does not ignore death and that the escape from death is a key in the great epics. The classic heroic descent into the underworld (death) and rebirth is one example of this, one that LotR touches on with Gandalf's rebirth after defeating the Balrog, Aragorn's journey under the mountain, and Frodo's passing through Shelob's lair. Clumsily, I'll admit. For the death part, I didn't get how exactly the great epics supposedly dignified death in a way that either Theoden's death on the Pelannor or Frodo's death (to take two completely different examples) at the end of book six do not.

But yeah, he doesn't get it quite right. It was too late to write a real epic by the time he got around to it. Plus, he was asked to write a kid's book when he started LotR. It is a kid's book, but it transcends that, and it does belong at the very top of the 20th century literary canon.

Also, I've tried to find this but I can't: I read an interview with some fantasy author who talks about the Ivory Tower institutions destroying love of literature, and it was linked in some thread on this forum, but I really can't remember where it was. If you know what I'm talking about please help me out, thanks. The reason I bring this up is to address the last point in Epic Pooh about Joyce. The reason Joyce is not held up as the author of the century is because he's entirely unreadable to most people. This isn't a failing of education, it's a failing of Joyce that a small minority of people can't accept. And trying to shove that stuff down my throat just makes me hate 20th century literature even more. I'd rather read something that's written to be read than something specifically calculated to make you not want to keep reading. Unless, of course, Joyce was experimenting with a style he hoped would be more natural to read, in which case he failed miserably. But that's an aside.
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#25 User is offline   Werthead 

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 08:21 PM

Fool said:

As for the rest, sure you can study it and try to look past the mostly bad writing and plotting and whatnot and discover the ideas of a man who when faced with modernity was trying to flee to hobbiton and who tried to stick to his ill conceived notions even when reality clashed against them. But why would you want to? Might as well study goodkind.


But Tolkien never fled modernity. He didn't like certain things like the internal combustion engine and the mechanisation of warfare, but he adopted a more pragmatic approach. He owned a car himself, for example. He also enjoyed science fiction (particularly the works of Isaac Asimov), which would seem to clash with the idea of him clinging to the past. I think it is truer to say he respected the past and regretted that perhaps some of the ideals of the past (nobility, chivalry) had passed, whilst acknowledging that those ideals perhaps only existed in stories and legend in the first place.

If Tolkien was 'trying to flee to Hobbiton' then Lord of the Rings would return to a status quo. But at the end of the book things have changed and moved on. The elves are still leaving Middle-earth, the age of the hobbits and elves and dwarves is still passing and the ascension of humanity is now unavoidable. This is Tolkien's pragmatism emerging. Maybe things were better in the past. Maybe that's just an illusion. But whatever the case, the here and now must be dealt with, no matter how unpalatable. For cosy, self-indulgent, vomit-inducing, fantasy-fulfilling endings, you have to pick up Lewis instead.

Maybe Tolkien doesn't work for some people. Fair enough. I have to say that Moorcock doesn't do much for me (Stormbringer in particular is a vastly overrated work) and I much prefer Wolfe, Vance and Peake. However, equating him with Goodkind, who has no subtext in his work and indeed has never shown any evidence of having an original thought in his entire life, is simply daft.

EDIT: Joyce can be hard-going and I never particularly found the energy to tackle Ulysses. But many of his short stories in Dubliners are remarkably powerful.
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#26 User is offline   Brys 

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 08:31 PM

I think that Mieville essay's pretty accurate in lots of respects - and unfortunately, most people only ever see his rash comments made on the PanMacMillan site which are much more inflammatory.

For death in Tolkien, I do agree that it isn't altogether different to the great epics - but Tolkien doesn't hold death as final, necessarily, which is the difference with those epics. In Tolkien, Gandalf effectively comes back to life, thereby revoking any dignity to his death in the previous book. Though of course there are some occasions in which he does match it - though these tend to be with the more minor characters, rather than the heroes themselves.


And I think ultimately, Sonnyboy, you're right - Tolkien didn't write novels as such. But that means that I consider Erikson and others superior. Tolkien had the worldbuilding, and that was what he focused on. But I think it's much more skillful to include that as just one of many factors. It's why I consider the Silmarillion Tolkien's best work - he didn't have to use some poor plotting and archetypes to explore his world, because the Silmarillion was entirely about the world, and it was very much in a mythological style and format, which worked well.

As for the point about James Joyce - I haven't read him, but I think it just goes to prove that any discussion about any literature is almost entirely subjective. There are some things that are clearly terrible writing, and some things that are clearly good writing, but there are very few examples of them, and Tolkien, like most authors, falls somewhere in between, as does James Joyce.


"it's a failing of Joyce that a small minority of people can't accept" - is it then an authors ultimate aim to appeal to as many people as possible? It isn't neccesarily a failing, it is just that his style doesn't appeal to the majority. By the logic you're using here, the bestseller lists would be exclusively representative of literary quality, irrespective of what was contained within those books.
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#27 User is offline   Brahm_K 

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 08:50 PM

Brys said:

In Tolkien, Gandalf effectively comes back to life, thereby revoking any dignity to his death in the previous book. Though of course there are some occasions in which he does match it - though these tend to be with the more minor characters, rather than the heroes themselves.


I don't want to get into this too much (Tolkien, though, is one of my favourite authors) but I would just like to say how funny I find it that somebody is criticizing Tolkien for bringing back a dead character and thus "revoking any dignity to his death" on an Erikson board.
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Posted 25 April 2006 - 09:17 PM

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If Tolkien was 'trying to flee to Hobbiton' then Lord of the Rings would return to a status quo. But at the end of the book things have changed and moved on. The elves are still leaving Middle-earth, the age of the hobbits and elves and dwarves is still passing and the ascension of humanity is now unavoidable.


Alright, so its another race but really where is the difference? Its more nobility and justice and benevolence just like it used to be. How is that not returning to the status quo?

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However, equating him with Goodkind, who has no subtext in his work and indeed has never shown any evidence of having an original thought in his entire life, is simply daft.


I didnt mean to put them on the same level. As i said Tolkien surely had a spark of genius when it came to world building that goodkind obviously does not have, and yeah, there's more subtlety to it, but as i said if you study the works then you will just find ideas. And those ideas arent really worth studying. They werent even particularly insightful in the 30s or 40s. They certainly arent now.

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For the death part, I didn't get how exactly the great epics supposedly dignified death in a way that either Theoden's death on the Pelannor or Frodo's death (to take two completely different examples) at the end of book six do not.


It's like if romeo woke up realizing that the poison didnt work and rushed juliet to a hospital and saved her and they lived happily ever after. Granted thats a tragedy and not an epic but the same applies really.

Tolkien takes away from the force of his writing by saving his characters when he should've let them die. Gandalf in Moria and Sam and Frodo on Mount Doom. It takes away from their sacrifice because it isnt complete. Just to get to the happy ending.

Damn eagles! v:(v

And yet another take on this by bakker:

http://www.wotmania.com/fantasymessageboar...MessageID=98054

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Let's start with discussing a major hot topic on the fantasy forums these days: China Miéville's comment about Tolkien being "the wen on the arse of fantasy." What were your reactions to that? What did you think about the response that question provoked on the forums that you've visited?

I'm afraid this answer has turned into something of a short essay, so let me apologize in advance.

What were my reactions? I laughed, of course, then I went running to the dictionary to look up the word 'wen' (just to be sure). I can certainly understand why Miéville might say this. The degree to which Tolkien has become the rule for so much fantasy is sure to antagonize those who style themselves 'rule-breakers.' Add to this a socialist bent and the sheer nostalgia of Tolkien's work, and the wen becomes very inflamed indeed.

All fantasy is a response to modernity of some kind, so it seems fair not only to ask what kind of response it is, but whether it's a positive or negative one - especially if you think, like Miéville and Tolkien, that modernity is somehow in crisis. In this respect, I think it's clear that there's something regressive about Tolkien's approach. By yearning for 'simpler times,' you not only risk drawing on the anachronisms and prejudices belonging to those times, you also become less inclined to participate in the present. Pining for the days before a problem is generally not an effective way of resolving it.

So I understand and in many ways sympathize with his complaint. Tolkien - and perhaps more significantly, Tolkienesque fantasy - can be seen as one of many 'social opiates,' a way to cope with social problems that reinforces rather than transforms the dominant institutions behind those problems.

Let me go into some detail, since statements like this can seem alienating in the absence of an explanation. Imagine what life was like for the average person some 400 years ago. They knew who stitched their clothes, who grew their food, who raised their houses, and so on - all the ways they depended upon others simply could not be ignored, and as a result some sense of community and communal responsibility was inescapable. Not anymore. As a result of technological innovation and the concentration of production, pretty much everything we depend on, from our blue jeans to our fried chicken, is provided anonymously. Not only can we ignore our multifarious dependencies, we can even pretend they don't exist. We are in fact the most interdependent generation in the history of the human race, and yet somehow we've come to think of ourselves as the exact opposite, as the most independent - as 'individuals.'

Contemporary consumer culture continually bombards us with images of this: "Everything you need," the commercial tagline runs, "comes from within." Just think of all the ways in which this message is repeated - and no wonder, given the way the media caters to our conceits. SUV's and rugged individualism. Cigarrettes and rebellious individualism. Shampoo for that 'individual look.' Few people make money telling people those things they don't want to hear, like the systematic way wealth often depends on poverty, or how our cars dump their own weight in CO2 into the atmosphere every year, or how we're becoming the greatest extinction event to hit our planet since the comet that took out the dinosaurs.

For people like Miéville, we already live in fantasy worlds - that's the problem - and what we need is a literature that will mitigate rather than aggravate the problem. Think of the way so many men style themselves as a 'rebel' or 'warrior' - I know I did. I remember congratulating myself day after day for being such a badass, even while I shuffled down aisle and queue, thoughtlessly doing what my boss told me to. 'Travel light,' the movie suggested. 'Wherever I lay my head is home,' the song crooned. 'Your future is what you make it,' the teacher insisted. The slogans go on and on. We've even been convinced that embracing these sayings - which are essentially marketing shout-lines - is what it means to be a rebel! Buy this CD and those hair-care products, look after you-know-who and spurn all things cooperative and collective - especially if they're political, which is to say, capable of effecting real change.

But of course this is only pseudo-individualism. In truth you're simply a 'good consumer,' working hard to make other people rich, reminding yourself over and over how unique and special you are while verifying your identity with your credit card, and thinking of all the things you could be, if only you had the time and money... If only... Because afterall, everyone is free to be what they want, aren't they?

Of course not. We don't live in a meritocracy - not so long as wealth remains more a matter of heredity than wit, grit and determination. The game is rigged - I think everyone understands this at some level. But the winners, the ones who own all the bullhorns, (and thus the only ones who are heard), crow on and on about how 'great' the system is. "I'm living proof!" they cry, conveniently forgetting their trust fund, that someone has to flip the burgers, pump the gas, stitch the clothes, man the assembly line - which is to say that someone has to provide all the goods and services they enjoy. Like all winners, they're convinced the game is fair, and if the game is fair, if everyone regardless of class has the same chance of becoming wealthy (and the facts shout otherwise), then the problem must lie with the players and not the game. Afterall an individual takes responsibility for their play... It's your own damn fault you're poor. You had all this potential...

If I had a nickel.

The systematic roots of our predicament escape us, because the media caters to our weaknesses, flattering us with images of illusory self-empowerment, papering over the complexities of system we live in, and concentrating on the short-term, the short-sighted and the individual. Afterall, each of us is our own person, with fiercely independant product choices to make. We end up living in little consumer bubbles, only dimly aware of the great machinery churning away in the darkness.

Given this dystopic picture, it becomes easy to see how Tolkien could be 'ideologically suspect.' The nostalgia for 'better days,' one might argue, induces complacency. The celebration of individual heroism and the identification with aristocratic values simply reinforces our false sense of empowerment. The provision of alternate worlds gives us yet another excuse to avoid the realities of this one. And so on...

Tolkien, understood in this light, is the return of the repressed, a way to express our disempowerment without having to relinquish our illusions. A wen.

Now I agree with much of this picture (so long as we remember it's an interpretation and not gospel), and yet nevertheless I would argue that Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings is a masterpiece - a founding work of genius and not a wen. One reason for this is that I take the business of evaluating the value of a work's social role to be simply part of the business of evaluating the value of a work as a whole. The second reason is that a work's social role is always a work in progress, something that can be transformed by the reception of subsequent works. Tolkien - rather obviously it seems to me - stumbled upon something profound, something which, even when bound up in nostalgia and sentimentalism, simply has to be acknowledged. By casting light on the world of Middle-earth, he has thrown into relief a world pressed to the edge - our world. And the problem lies not so much in what he's written, but in how he is read. We determine his social role.

And this is why I'm such an unabashed fan, and why I write Tolkienesque epic fantasy. I want to continue Tolkien's exploration of our world, and to further it if I can. I'm not so interested in 'transcending the genre' as I am in exploring the possibilities within it - and I would argue that these are far more vast and significant than most realize.

So what was my overall reaction to Miéville's comment? Understanding and disappointment.

As for what I've seen of the debate this comment has triggered, I found it both interesting and heartening. As an epic fantasist, I've been stung by the 'laymen' versus 'literati' divide that seems to be forming along the epic and urban fantasy lines - especially regarding the 'new weird.' It's strange how little versions of this hierarchy seem to crop up in every sphere of human cultural production. For my own part, too many people seem convinced of the superiority of their tastes for me to have that much faith in the superiority of my own. All I like to point out to self-professed rule-breakers is that in many cases they're not so much overturning a set of conventions as they are buying into another. Post-modern works, for instance, have their own stable of conventions: hybridity instead of purity, existentially subversive doubles instead of dragons, displaced subjects instead of heroes, and undecidability instead of apocalyptic evil. I try to test the rules I follow, but I'm not convinced that simply swapping one set of commonplace rules for another set of arcane ones counts as 'original.' It's too mechanical. Originality, I suspect, arises between the rules.

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#29 User is offline   Werthead 

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 10:06 PM

Tolkien equated the elves in his work to humanity before original sin, and that the humans in Middle-earth are humanity after embracing sin, so in Tolkien's eyes the elves represent mankind at his best and the humans of Middle-earth represent humanity at his worst. By having the elves (themselves 'fallen' at this point by their rebellion against the Valar in The Silmarillion) depart Middle-earth forever, Tolkien is essentially saying that the world has been inherited by the sinful. Which is of course more a reflection of his Christianity (and arguably one of only a handful that can be found in his work, contrary to say Lewis' works) than anything else, but it still seems to state that the status quo has not been restored. Flawed humanity - of whom people like Aragorn are the exception, not the rule - has essentially won.

This is reiterated even stronger in The Lord of the Ring's sequel. Tolkien actually abandoned it because he felt that he couldn't do anything else other than show the true corruption and darkness in the hearts of men in The New Shadow as that was the logical extension of the melancholic ending of Lord of the Rings, but also that portraying that may also alienate readers of The Lord of the Rings. He also felt that he had covered similar ground (the destruction of the old order and the display of true corruption) in the Scouring of the Shire.
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#30 User is offline   Malarion 

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 11:03 PM

Brys said:

And I think ultimately, Sonnyboy, you're right - Tolkien didn't write novels as such. But that means that I consider Erikson and others superior.


I think Sonnyboy said it best when he said that Tolkien wasn't in fact fantasy as we now know it but has, in a way, become more like mythology. When I read about Tolkien's world (unlike any other author out there) I feel like I am discoving a real mythology that has evolved from many people and over many years. It really has the feel of true mythology, something Erikson (or anyone else) hasn't come close to. You can "study" Tolkien in the way you can study ancient Egyptian mythology, and that is its true genius. It is a complete work, defining everything contained within.
Sure, the stories are weak, and I truelly do believe Frodo at least should have died to save it (but not Gandalf - his return, I feel, was essential to the story).
So to criticise Tolkiens plots, characters and prose it fine, but to criticise his world building...quite mad and rather blind. And its no surprise that it is this aspect that no one actually has criticised.

So...not sure what I'm saying here.
Perhaps simply. Read Tolkien as you would the Epics of Gilgamesh, or indeed Beowulf, for thats what he wrote. Don't compare to Erikson, for they are incomparable.
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#31 Guest_Sonnyboy_*

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 11:35 PM

Frodo did die to save Middle Earth. That's why he left it as soon as it was saved (meaning after the Scouring of the Shire). Where do you think he was going over the sea?

And Gandalf needn't have died, for two reasons. 1) The obvious, Gandalf was not mortal. 2) Gandalf had to "die" and be "reborn" to become Gandalf the White. His role as the Grey Pilgrim, wandering the lands moving pieces basically in secret, was over, and he had to become the White Rider, and declare himself openly against Sauron. Without Gandalf's direct involvement, both Rohan and Gondor would have fallen. From a narrative standpoint, I can see how it might have seemed cheap to bring him back to life, but the truth was he didn't really die.

@Brys - what I'm getting at isn't that Joyce is just crap because he's not popular. My point is Joyce isn't good just because he's not popular. And literature should be read. So it's not that I'm arguing that good literature should be determined by best seller lists, but rather that good literature should make you want to read it, not throw it into a fireplace for its tediousness.
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#32 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 07:36 AM

Gandalf was of the same race as Sauron, so death does not apply the same way.. And I like Joyce's books
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#33 User is offline   Tsundoku 

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 10:43 AM

This kind of reminds me of Year 12 English class. Overanalysis of EVERYTHING killed my love of literature for years. I couldn't even look at Shakespeare until a couple of years ago.

I'm not saying that analysis has no merit (perish the thought!), but sometimes an orc is just an orc.

I love the STORY of the Lord of the Rings, plus the WORLD. His style could drive me nuts (HOW MANY pages to get from the Shire to Bree?) or could move me deeply (Rohan had come). But this modern trend of overanalysis, coming up with clever new intellectual-sounding catchphrases to basically say "I don't like it", is to me the most turgid wank associated with Tolkien, not his writing.

By the way guys, no I am not dissing you, I am having a go at the James Joyce style impenetrable intellectual wanks such as China "I'm SOOOO much better than Tolkien" what's-his-face.
Yes, I could nut out what he's going on about, but I am not inclined because I believe the effort would not be worth it.

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PS - sometimes bad guys come across as cardboard cutouts because all the perspective is from the good guys, who have either ample reason to demonise the enemy, or just don't know jack sh*t besides "they want to kill/enslave us, and that sucks". Think about it.
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#34 Guest_Sonnyboy_*

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 11:22 AM

I didn't go to my high school English classes all the time, and I very rarely bothered to read what we were supposed to read until right before an exam, or if I had to write an essay. So basically, because I ignored it entirely (which turned out to be to my advantage), they couldn't kill any love I had for literature. I didn't discover that I actually did like literature (some literature) until my third year of university. Three years later, I had my first English degree and a serious hate on for pretty much everything written after 1610 or so with the exception of Browning, Frost, Tolkien and (w00t!!!) Pratchett, thanks largely to the pompousity of the whole exercise after Shakespeare.

Of course, when I went back a few years later, I softened quite a bit on Milton, Tennyson, Yeats, and several others, but most twentieth century literature still smells pretty bad to me. I guess I shouldn't be so hard on it, it suits some people's taste, but not mine.

Oh, another thing about Tolkien's villains is that LotR really doesn't do them justice, I'll admit that. You really have to be familiar with the whole picture to understand the villains and appreciate them, and that's a weakness in LotR.
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#35 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 01:19 PM

I'm no great fan of the writing in LotR though paradoxly, I love the book.

The reason why I love it has little to do with the book on its own, and much to do with what I see as Tolkien's true masterpiece, silmarillion. I love that book. The feeling, as so many before me have pointed out, of exploring a mythology as real and powerfull as that of the egyptians, the greek, and the vikings. Silmarillion, with characters like Morgoth who I consider without a doubt to be the best epic villian ever to have been created within fantasy litterature.

The emergence of humanity, the march of the elves, the wars of middle earth. The heroic deeds as well as the tragedies. The magic, the mundande. Blessings and curses. The toppeling of the towers, the destruction of the two trees, the birth of the silmarills.. Feanor's anger and Manwés despair.

In this book there is nothing wrong with Tolkien's prose nor his characters. he writes and charcterise exactly like one should in a story such as this.

I dislike this ever growing trend of bashing tolkien. Sure LotR is no exceptional book on it's own. But the way it paved the path for all modern fantasy as well as bringing to life a world unmatched by any other makes Tolkien deserve all the credit he has received.

In addition, though I enjoy Mieville's books, his attacks on Tolkien conform to such an extent with the norms of writers belonging to his genre that I have difficulties seeing it as little but sad. "I want to be a rebell I do!", his comments scream, at least to me.
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#36 Guest_Danyah_*

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 02:51 PM

Miéville uses fantasy for social critisism, and seems to despise the form of escapism Tolkien offers. Everybody needs to escape some way from reality, either by reading, drugs, drinking, watching TV or travelling. On the other hand, if you want to participate actively in the development of society, you need to have a critical vision, a vision that can be achieved by reading, discussing,... They both form different ends on the same spectrum. Miéville puts too much responsibility on the shoulders authors in general. You can't oblige an artist to be socially engaged, or point him on his possibilities of influence. Otherwise we can all go and applaud for our friend Terry, because he (ab)uses the medium for social critisism (and propaganda).

Art can critisise, but it shouldn't be obliged to. As for Tolkien, you either like the genre or not, but he is great in his genre. There are lots of people who just plain suck in their chosen genre.
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#37 User is offline   Limaris 

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 03:25 PM

Fantastic comments I cannot believe so much has been written while i've been offline. I look to answer each of you soon.
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Posted 26 April 2006 - 03:49 PM

Gah, wrote something then clicked the back button on my mouse by mistake. Oh well, here we go again.

What awful things did they make you poor people read in school? The collected works of Jane Austen, Emily Bronte and Kate Chopin and Ullysses and Gravity's Rainbow?

I really liked most of the books we read like Antigone, Medea, Othello, A Doll's House, Things Fall Apart, Running in the Family, the Book of Job and especially The God of Small Things, Metamorphosis and Black Rain, which is still my favorite book. And man, those people could write. So much so in fact that to me, really, Tolkien seems like a dilettant next to them even if you take his world building into consideration.

And i find it really tedious how people just write it off as "bashing" or claim that you just didnt get it and go read it again! and stop overanalyzing it already, and Tolkien is really influential so that somehow makes it a better book than it actually is and OMG erikson does it, too, so you cant possibly criticise it and how dare you mention goodkind and tolkien in the same sentence and it was written in the 30s when most people could hardly glue two words together much less think up a good plot and the people in the UK voted LOTR the bestest book ever so there!

Relax.

Thats on the same level as me going: "You're all ignorant about literature! Go read some books that arent by Brooks or Eddings and you will realize that Tolkien is crap." Dont think i'd make a lot of friends that way. And it seems no matter which book you criticise there's always some fanboys who immediately have to discredit and rationalize your views away like they're on a mission.

There have been some really nice posts in this thread. Could we just cut out this kind of kneejerk :)?
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#39 User is offline   Brys 

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 04:20 PM

Sombra said:

This kind of reminds me of Year 12 English class. Overanalysis of EVERYTHING killed my love of literature for years. I couldn't even look at Shakespeare until a couple of years ago.

I'm not saying that analysis has no merit (perish the thought!), but sometimes an orc is just an orc.

I love the STORY of the Lord of the Rings, plus the WORLD. His style could drive me nuts (HOW MANY pages to get from the Shire to Bree?) or could move me deeply (Rohan had come). But this modern trend of overanalysis, coming up with clever new intellectual-sounding catchphrases to basically say "I don't like it", is to me the most turgid wank associated with Tolkien, not his writing.

By the way guys, no I am not dissing you, I am having a go at the James Joyce style impenetrable intellectual wanks such as China "I'm SOOOO much better than Tolkien" what's-his-face.
Yes, I could nut out what he's going on about, but I am not inclined because I believe the effort would not be worth it.

Cheers,

La Sombra, shaved his goatee and no longer wears a beret. Keepin' it real, homies. :)

PS - sometimes bad guys come across as cardboard cutouts because all the perspective is from the good guys, who have either ample reason to demonise the enemy, or just don't know jack sh*t besides "they want to kill/enslave us, and that sucks". Think about it.



Overanalysis? That just reminds me of Duh, Tell Us About The Rabbits, George



Sonnyboy - I misinterpreted you. I agree that we shouldn't automatically give credit to something because its unpopular, but neither should we automatically dismiss it.

As for Mieville on Tolkien, it's a real shame that the only real debate which has stemmed from that focuses entirely on one phrase, which he now regrets saying, and not from the actual valid criticisms he made.
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Posted 26 April 2006 - 06:36 PM

@Fool - Oh lord, how I wish I'd gone to your school. I assume that your teachers weren't mildly retarded? Cause I suspect mine were. And it's not that what we read was that bad. Just didn't really make me care. Merchant of Venice, Macbeth, Hamlet for a start, and then flash forward 300 years to Animal Farm, To Kill a Mockingbird, Fahrenheit 451, a bunch of third-rate Canadian "Literature"...
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