[Ivan the terrible]

Laseen has allied herself with a powerful Mage, now it seems a Destriant. Why would SE wait until so late to inform us the of proper meaning of the word. The Pogrom would be no more than a very large blood sacrifice. While Mael might have previously been ambivalent , he is obviously not anymore. Having a Destriant and possible Mortal sword in Withal hints at a greater involvement. We all know how SE likes to mess with perceptions, while i am not claiming that Jhistal is a nice character, even mortals like Laseen know the meaning of the word expediance. She could see the benefits of having a powerful high mage with a link to an eldar god and a powerful ally against the chained one(Just becuase we understand something about the eldars even more now after BH, Laseen would only view them as a complication an unknown player in the game) She needs a greater understanding , her inverted command structure has worked against her , she does not have the necessary info. But as Dujek mentions at one stage "never underestimate the empress" I think time will prove me right here.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Because he betrayed Coltaine? Because he killed the 10,000 at Aren? Because "Pormqual" was all his doing? Because he was associated with the Whirlwind? Because he is still associated with Korbolo Dom, a character who we know intends to overthrow Laseen and create his own form of tyranny? Because he comes from a sect/tribe persecuted and almost wiped out by the Kellanved's Empire? Because he has subverted the Claw, seriously weakening the Empire?

[Ivan the terrible]

Who cares, my point was at that time he was free to do whatever, now that Mael has a more active role he is merely Laseens link to the Eldar Gods, and not a bad one at that. I refuse to belive that Korbolo is any real threat in fact i am confidant Laseen could deal with him on her own. Jhistal isjust one of Maels weapons aginst the crippled God. The Claw was in serious need of Winnowing it had already become weakened. Mael wants a powerful Empire to face the Crippled God the pogrom blodd sacrifice would give him power to ensure it's safety and maybe defeat the crippled God. Mael doesn't care about humanity as a whole what is the loss of the Wickens to him. Or indeed the Aren Guard and Coltaine except a snack. Mael wants to defeat /kill the Cripple god so in the long term why is the Jhistal's present involvement for the empire a bad thing considering i am pretty sure Laseen will betray him and come up smelling of roses. She is in a dangerous position but she seems too canny to fail entirely

[Dolorous Menhir]

I'm not convinced that Mael is an active player against the CG, even post-MT. I think it's quite likely that after he beat up the CG he just went back to being Bugg and pottering about on Lether with Tehol.

Remember the timeframe of Rel's actions from DG onwards is all post-Mael's (supposed) revival of interest, and I definitely don't see Mael behind the Jhistal's actions. The only example we've seen of him doing ANYTHING outside MT is his anger at the Eres invading his realm in BH, and that was just a passing mention.

[Ivan the terrible]

And Withal and Sandalath Drukorlat, his role has become far more active of late he wants to save the world see Agayla comments to Bottle. He has to find Withal, this is Mael 's instructions to Withal at the end of MT about a job .But even he may have underestimated Laseen, that is after all a running theme in the books, what is old being tripped up by what is new. See Dejim Nebrahl. I don't neccessarily believe this but it is a possibility to consider. Either way the Jhistal will die somehow

[Agraba]

Quote

I refuse to belive that Korbolo is any real threat in fact i am confidant Laseen could deal with him on her own.

You're like one of those empires in the oldest stories that ignores the small obstruction in the corner there, thinking it's probably nothing, upholding the arrogance of an empire, and taking no immediate action. When the Sith overthrew the Jedi and made their own empire, they could have run a thorough search and destruction of any remaining rebel factions, thus preventing the events of Episodes 4, 5, and 6 from unfolding. Also, by your wording, "I refuse to believe", your opinion is based on a non-assertive evasion of the sordidness of Korbolo's ambition, which results in my first point (the lack of investigating small matters).

I think Bugg is an opposer of the Crippled God. Why would he deviate from the mission to export immigrants, to get involved with things like the underwater demon that belonged to the Edur? That he helped the Ceda get rid of that demon certainly indicated that he was opposed to the invasion of the Tiste Edur. Perhaps he knew that they were allied to the Crippled God.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Sure, but that's only a kind of defensive stance. When somebody makes a move on Tehol, or Tehol's town or country, then he reacts. That's not the same as actively opposing the CG elsewhere, which we really haven't seen him do, save for the end of MT.

Perhaps the almost-death of Tehol did jolt him back into caring about the world, but I really think he just went back to his life as Bugg, the only place he seems happy, and that he will only swat down the CG when he's given no choice but to (as happened with the demon he helped the Ceda trap).

[Ivan the terrible]

Nah , i just think Korbolo is massivly Stupid. In HoC he tried to attack Kalam nuff said. Laseen created the Claw and she ain't afraid of risks, embracing the viper just to rip it's head off kinda thing. She created the Claw for crying out loud. She is never complacent as she told Pearl if i have my guess she will suprise us all. She wil betray them all. The Black Hand was severly decimated by Kalam and Apsalar, i think most of the claw in Malaz city were loyal to the Jhistal and not Laseen he has suffered quite a blow. Remember Kalam was convinced by Laseen and himself and Tayschren schemed with Quick Ben before the events of Malaz. If these characters wanted to preserve anything would it not be the Empire. The Empire will survive we know this because of Grub but Laseen will survive the Crippled God, i predict i may eat my words

[Illuyankas]

Well, there is concern over the figure behind Rel - the puppetmaster, if you will - with Tavore and T'amber worried that Kalam killing Rel (if he can) would not expose the hidden patron behind him. Now, if it was Mael, then that would be blindingly obvious and out of character for him, so the CG is a useful alternative.

And Laseen's reaction to Dom has made him invulnerable, effectively. By making him the saviour of the Empire and demonising Coltaine, she's giving him a huge support base, and were she to change her mind and have him killed, not only would most (if not all) of the remaining Claw follow Rel over her, almost all of her subjects would be behind the new, Wickan-slaying 'First Sword'. So she messed up HORRIBLY.

[Ivan the terrible]

First Swords aren't invunerable to falling down a stairs. Out of Character we don't really know what Mael's character is His motivation is for the World's survival, placing his pawns in positions of power is aw ay to achieve this. So what if he has to kill a few wickans to do so. Coltaines death while immeadiatly tragic pacified the 7c in the long run even strenghtened the Panthenon. Remember Coltaine didn't really die. Try thinking objectivly like Tayschreen

[Agraba]

Why would it be out of character for Bugg to be behind Mallick Rel's actions? Because Bugg's good and Rel's bad? We know nothing of Mael's opinion on the Malazan Empire, and maybe he does sympathize with the Rebellion's cause to snuff out the empire's rule in the Seven Cities. His desire to crumble the empire and cause the big riot in Malaz City should have nothing to do with his attachment to Tehol.

Also, who says Korbolo desires chaos? He just thinks he'd make a better ruler than Laseen. This kind of power struggle has happened many times in history, and didn't require the alliance of a nefarious god (excepting maybe the Christian God )

[Therion]

Illuyankas said:

Well, there is concern over the figure behind Rel - the puppetmaster, if you will - with Tavore and T'amber worried that Kalam killing Rel (if he can) would not expose the hidden patron behind him. Now, if it was Mael, then that would be blindingly obvious and out of character for him, so the CG is a useful alternative.

I agree with you, Illuyankas. Mael as introduced in MT would be really pissed at what Rel has been doing, supposedly in Mael's name (and probably under the influence of the CG).

[Ivan the terrible]

The whole point of the series is that no character is truly evil does not the Malazan empire seem evil if they wiped out your entire tribe?

[Ivan the terrible]

As to pearl and Banaschar conversation pearl is not all knowing. The forumswas started in direct response to the revalation in the appendix of BH that Jhistal means Destriant hence Mael is well aware of Jhistal's actions. He has an active role in the book. We don't really know his motivations and what he sees in Laseen. The extent of free will that the Jhistal has is debateable but Mael is aware of him of that there is no doubt.

[Illuyankas]

Rath Fener called himself Destriant. Was he? No. Rel can call himself whatever the hell he wants, if Mael cared he'd do something about it.