[Ivan the terrible]

Korbolo is lifes pawn. No where have his actions been free of manipulation. Wheter this be the Jhistal or Laseen, where does his loyalty lie. He doesn't have the intelligence to act on his own

[Illuyankas]

I'd say he doesn't have the intelligence to succeed on his own, but he's capable of doing things by himself - and most likely running the Empire into the ground.

[Ivan the terrible]

@Illuyankas
One about false Destriant.
NOW that is a good point i hadn't considered. My only concern is the coincidental revalation at the back of BH when the Jhistal's role becomes more prominant. Doubt remains, Mael is active in Malaz city on the same night as the Jhistal he is definatly aware of the Jhistal's existence. But you are right i would actually like to see Tehol in the position of Destriant, reckon Withal is closer to Shiel Anvil

[Ivan the terrible]

Who would let him have it and need i remind you all Laseen has made a far more formidable First sword dissapear before

[Illuyankas]

We heard a lot in TBH about followers spilling blood in the name of their god, and going against the god's wishes weakening it or killing it, like in Greyfrog's story. In the case of Fener, Rath Fener(and the Claw on Laseen's orders)'s actions weakened him to the point where he couldn't do anything to save himself.

However, Elder Gods thrive on blood spilled in their name...

EDIT for 9:58PM post: Using the Claw, which is now under Rel's command.

[Ivan the terrible]

Using the empire= Pogrom, and The 10000 on Aren's way
Jhistal = "a high priest of an eldar god who employs human blood in ritual magic"

[Illuyankas]

So he may have the tecniques passed down from his tribe, but without the approval of his god - or with the approval of his new god. As Mael is elder, he can survive/tolerate this far easier than younger gods like Fener can.

[Ivan the terrible]

So it is agreed Mael is an unkown power admittedly against the crippled God but may have a similar view of Humanity as Poliel. But he don't like being worshipped, however the Crippled God situation may call for power hence sacrifice on a mass scale. Heboric's comments i paraphrase "the purpose of this war is to oust the eldar gods" Out with the old in with the new. We can expect many twists and turns and revaltions to come i am sure. I just really want Shadow throne to win to beat them all to unite shadow. Go back in time and give the eres some of her own medicine father his own child

[Illuyankas]

You know Trull's the father of Kettle, the saviour of Shadow, right?

[Ivan the terrible]

Okay maybe we ain't agreed....... we shall have to wait to find out how much mael really knew or in fact cared. But i don't see many Eldar Gods getting out of this situation untarnished As hetan pointed out. Shadowthrone and Cotillon are IMHO the most dangerous characters in the world

[Ivan the terrible]

@Illuyankas yeah of course just thought that would be the best way of defeating the eres's plans and holding onto Shadow, twas supposed to be a bit of a joke

[Illuyankas]

Cool, it was the Shadow rocks thing that threw me, as everyone knows Shadow kicks ass

[Ivan the terrible]

Can't wait to see what they do with Cutter and Trull and indeed Kalam

[Cause]

I dont see how malazan peasants slaughtering wickan tribesman on the plains is a sacrifice. I reckon theirs more to it than just killing people and say this was for our god

[Ivan the terrible]

nah we werte discvussing the plans for the wickan pogrom incited by the jhistal priest. the paesents are merely manipulated. The possibility of blood sacrifice would be his because he was the instigator, to sacrifice to whom was the issue in question, mael or the crippled god

[Nazaar]

A few things:

Why is there a necessity for someone who is 'evil' to be associated with the chained god? We can safely assume that all of the gods at one point or another are going to choose sides, but does the same apply for people? People intimately involved like QB, Kalam etc are going to have to commit, but they're playing the big game.

My impression of what Rel is doing is a very basic power gathering set of moves. He's sacrificing the Wickans because 1) they caused him a lot of problems in the 7c 2)the empire would be benefitted in using their land for grain 3)he's not too bright in the long view. It may be that it's all a blood sacrifice type thing, but where have we got any impression that Mael would willingly take the sacrifice? Sure, Elder gods as a rule are more likely to accept them, but that doesn't mean that all elder gods like blood sacrifices regardless of their sources? This completely disregards the possibility of differential morality between gods. Unless, of course, Rel is going to jump ship at the last minute and profer the sacrifice to CG.

I would have thought the idea of inciting racial hatred in the melting pot that is the Malazan Empire would be a really stupid thing to do, and in a quite obvious way. From what I can see one of the main strength of the Empire is similar to Rome, absord the cultures, adapt anything beneficial, and treat each principality equally. So is he stupid, or does he not really want to be in power in the Empire?

[JAGHUT JIM]

From what i've seen of the jhistal everything he does has been to discredit the empire not just Laseen. He is trying to discredit the heroes of the seven cities campaign and possibly uphold the newest force in that devastated land, Shaik reborn reborn's crippled army of the apocalypse. Even Paran says how it can become the most dangerous force on the world, especially if the jhistal and central malazan empire make up its numbers. The jhistal is obviously very intelligent and to me it seems he wouldn't be ignorant of the greater struggle about to take place. He probably is very power hungry but i doubt the throne is his only major goal. A high place in the house of chains as well as a mortal empire?

[Tremolo]

Ivan the terrible said:

Heboric's comments i paraphrase "the purpose of this war is to oust the eldar gods" Out with the old in with the new. We can expect many twists and turns and revaltions to come i am sure.

I couldnt agree more! There is the out in the open war between the Chained God and his allies and Krul and his allies which is fairly obvious. But then there is the old feud/struggle between younger and elder gods. In this twilight war everybody has long term goals that goes beyond the ousting of the Chained God.
Malazan doctrine, as we have been told it thus far, is to be independent of any gods or ascendants. Feners cults were split up, the assasination attempt on Dassem was supposedly because of his connection with Hood and so, and so on. So here we have an expanding empire that is a thorn in the eye of any god who strives to stay remembered and worshipped.
As I see it, any single god in the pantheon has only three paths to choose. Either to destroy this empire that wants nothing to do with gods from spreading all over the world or try to turn them around and make them pawns of their own. Rell has wounded the empire by his doings in 7C and thereby made it in need of strong allies. Mael then comes to the rescue and having not been actively involved in the military catastrophees he is an eligible choice as patron of the Malazan Empire and thereby gain valuable forces that were on the brink of being controlled by Shadowthrone and Cotillon who as we all know are younger gods.
The third choice is somewhat similar to the first one and consists of denying this valuable empires uses to any other gods by destroying it as a power completely.

[Abyss]

Go back to the start of DG - even there, Duiker's thoughts on Rel are coloured by the fact that those who were in his way had a tendency to die horribly.

'Jhistal' is a title, and may have a similarity to Destriant, but i really doubt Rel can affect Mael the way Heboric affected Fener. I think that Rel is drawing on Mael's warren, and therefore, drawing on elder magic, but i doubt he's acting on Mael's will.

As for Mael, he may be preoccupied having been (re)drafted into godhood by Tehol in evacuating the indigents from Leth. Point being, as Rel isn't likely the most religious of sorts, he's probably more of a mage than a priest at this point.

- Abyss, more of a rabbi.