[jammer]

I was under the impression that Rel wasn't really acting on Mael's behalf. I figured that since Mael has been "absent" it was conveneint for Rel to assume that title. However, I was under the impression that Rel is actually working for the crippled god in a situation that was alluded to by Banaschar when he spoke of God's being betrayed by their followers.

[Asandir]

I believe that Rel took advantage of the fact that Mael was offline for so long and went and increased his power/skills in the process. As we know Mael wasn't paying any attention to his followers even when Withal was praying and he wouldn't have if not for Tehol.
Look how QB managed to be a High priest of shadow.

I believe alll the jhistal is after is power and the destruction of anything that gets in his way. He may have already switched sides or else hasn't come to Maels attention yet.
or
on a different track altogether he is doing Maels work in trying to create a world where there are no empires(fah).

[GingerBreadMan]

My opinion: We assume he is bad for the emperor since he has been bad for everything else. Simple as that, he has shown he has no shame in sacrificing others to further his own cause and we really have no reason to believe he is good for anything but himself.

As for him working with Mael, I doubt it. Really doubt it, Mael may be an Elder God and thus a bit bloody but he still strikes me as a fairly honorable God who would view his priests actions with anger.

[JAGHUT JIM]

At the end of bonehunters when the populace of Malaz city rises against the fourteenth it is clearly stated that the power whipping the citizens into a frenzy is chaotic, wouldn't this mean he's working for the crippled god? Nothing the CG has done is to the benefit of the Malazan Empire. The CG wants every civilization in the world (barring those allied to him) weak so they fall to him easier. Malaz included.
Also, Poliel (another CG ally) decimated the largest continent in the Malaz Empire, seems to me that the CG's eyes are most definitely on the Malazan Empire.
In answer to whether or not he's betrayed Mael, D'reks followers betrayed her but she had to take direct action to eliminate them, Mael didnt seem to want to do much more than hang with Tehol, which imo means he's not interested in chasing after his naughty little followers, especially now that he's got his hands very full!

[Ivan the terrible]

We agree Laseen is either being really clever or incompetant. If she is stupid a powerful and ruthless mortal obsessed with his own power, would not knowingly give the crippled god power when he knows the CG is a threat to his power base i.e the world. If Laseen is smart she makes use of a powerful mage giving her a link to an elder power i,e Mael. Remember she taught the emperor tactical placement not the other way around. Either way the Malazan empire has an effective and strong leader

[Ivan the terrible]

I don't think he is associated with the crippled God but it is a theory that is being thrown around recently. I think the Malazan empire will stay aspected to Humanity without the influence of a higher power. I think thus is Tayschrenns only real goal. Preserving an independent human power

Edit; Regardless of the nature of the ruler, and you can be sure Tayschrenn knew almost as much as ST and Cotillion

[Illuyankas]

How can you say Kallor or the Seer had no power? Or Poliel? Besides, there IS someone behind Rel, and finding the identity of that figure was Laseen's sole reason for sacrificing Tavore and her power base. If she and Kalam killed them both, they'd still not know who was backing Rel up. So, it could be the CG, it could be another figure. But who would it be this late in the series?

[Abyss]

Illuyankas said:

..., it could be the CG, it could be another figure. But who would it be this late in the series?

Well that IS the question.
It was suggested, i think in MoI, that a large part of the reason for WJ's demotion was to ensure that when the CG's big evil plan started, a skilled commander would be 'on the ground' but relatively unoticed. Which to my mind suggested that someone(s), including Laseen, contemplated a conflict with the CG. The Pannion war was supposed to be an opportunity to enlist Rake and Brood as allies in order to prep for that conflict, but the CG ended up being involved already, which surprised everyone and necessitated changes in plan and any number of things going wrong, including WJ's kebabing by Kallor.

But there are unknowns at play here... Tiam, Mommy D, Scabby, any number of Elder Gods, the Jade Gs, the dragons, the Azath, the FA... take your pick... any of them could be on the dark side (Mommy D pun intended). Maybe the whole mages-yanking-the-CG-out-of-his-world was a part of someone else's master plan.

And maybe Rel is a link to that person. Or back to CG... on another level, if Rel IS tightly enough linked to the CG, there may be a vulnerability there.

- Abyss, thinks any worthwhile master plan is diabolical.

[philospher77]

Ivan the terrible said:

As to pearl and Banaschar conversation pearl is not all knowing. The forumswas started in direct response to the revalation in the appendix of BH that Jhistal means Destriant hence Mael is well aware of Jhistal's actions. He has an active role in the book. We don't really know his motivations and what he sees in Laseen. The extent of free will that the Jhistal has is debateable but Mael is aware of him of that there is no doubt.

From what I can tell, a Jhistal/Destriant is sorta equivalent to a Pope. They are supposed to be the leader of the faithful, and, if necessary, have a better than average chance of getting the god's attention on some issue dealing with the faithful and religion. However, that does not mean that everything they do is being sanctioned by the god. So, if D'rek's Destriant had a question about whether you could substitute goats for dogs in the great D'rek festival, he might get an answer from D'rek. When D'rek's Destriant declares that they are going to align with the CG, he also got an answer, but one that clearly showed that he wasn't acting in D'rek's name.

[philospher77]

Tremolo said:

Malazan doctrine, as we have been told it thus far, is to be independent of any gods or ascendants. Feners cults were split up, the assasination attempt on Dassem was supposedly because of his connection with Hood and so, and so on. So here we have an expanding empire that is a thorn in the eye of any god who strives to stay remembered and worshipped.

I don't read the Malazan doctrine quite the same way. They refuse to have a patron god, a state religion, if you will. And they object strongly to some of the more disgusting practices of the various cults. (And, I have to admit, some of them are really the sort of thing you don't want going on in your towns, what with all the trash and dead animals and blood, etc.) But I don't think that they actively stop people from worshipping whatever gods they want, within those stipulations. Oh, and as long as you don't use the religion as a basis for rebellion, of course.

[Ivan the terrible]

I would agree partly with both of you, I think the goal of the Malazan empire is not reject gods and religions,(The existence of such beings is beyond doubt on Wu it would be pointless to try and deny even kill Gods as more would take their place. Tayschrenn admits his own faith in the concept D'rek represents he cannot reject her ideal. This faith is influenced by his personality various different faiths and view points are established within the person which would lead them to the worship/dedication to a concept. This ensures the existence continued existence of worshipped gods. See Kruls comments in GOTM on how the tide of enslavement is reversed it is the mortals who are now the masters. And Trulls and Onracks conversation about belief shaping power.
Thus i think the long term aim for tayschreen is not to destroy Gods but to minise their influence within the malazan empire. He may even seek to use their power through influencing the minds of the malazan population, what better way to control gods then influence their power base. This of course is just conjecture


EDIT @Illuyankas as to Kallor being an independent human power , well his longevity comes from an elder gods curse. I don't deny that there can't be other human powers just that tayschrenn wants the malazan empire to be one too. He wants it free of Godly influence

P.S Which Seer