[Sir Thursday]

@ Dolorous:

Did that flashback to Fiddler and WJ stealing Dunsparrow from Hood have to occur before they enlisted? It would make more sense if it didn't, as IIRC WJ didn't know Fid before the joined up (Fid was new to the Bridgeburners for Raraku, because we see WJ giving him his nickname). This would allow for a larger difference in ages between WJ and Dunsparrow, and would fit the facts a bit better too.

Vox

[Dolorous Menhir]

You could be right vox, I'm not sure when it happened. The age gap between WJ and Dunsparrow is pretty perplexing either way.

Pretty sure there is evidence conflicting the WJ narrative to Rake, saying that WJ & Fid knew each other before Raraku, can't give you any page refs for it though, anyone out there back me up/shoot me down?

[Imperial Historian]

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But as mentioned above - there is the extreme youth of Dunsparrow, she only appears to be in her 20s, yet Fid and WJ were getting up to high-jinks with Hood when she was a baby, and this seemed to be before they enlisted.

Dunsparrow is young, but Whiskeyjack and the bridge burners are also young, they are never referred to as taking part in the early campaigns of the empire, the bridgeburners were formed on Seven Cities, a campaign which I believe took place about 10 years prior to the end of Kellanved's reign, ie 20 years ago (there's a reference in one of the conversations about Kel's use of the imass in the Seven Cities campaign I think, couldn't find it on a quick scan through but if someones willing to look)

The BB's are referred to as young when they pass through Raraku, and if only 20 or so years have passed they remain quite young, so whiskeyjack at 50 and fiddler at 40 could make sense on that front if Dunsparrow is 25.

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as IIRC WJ didn't know Fid before the joined up (Fid was new to the Bridgeburners for Raraku, because we see WJ giving him his nickname).

WJ doesn't acknowledge an aquaintance with Fiddler in that scene in Raraku, but as commanding officer he wouldn't acknowledge a prior friendship with one of his men, Whsikeyjack however trusts Fiddler enough to have him and his friend as his backup against QB's tricks... suggests a certain aquaintance does it not.

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There is also the GotM age of Dujek (79) which, although often dismissed as a GotMism, conflicts with a 100 year old Empire since Admiral Nok says that Dujek was there from the beginning.

Nok says that there was a lad called dujek on malaz isle, no reference to him becoming dujek onearm, it's plausible that dujek onearm is related in some way to this first dujek, after all he is always called Dujek Onearm, whilst other characters generally only require a second qualifier if there is another of the same name around...

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On the other hand, Riggalai spoke at the beginning of GotM of how Itko Kan had been under the Imperial yoke for generations, so long that they liked it.

Ikto Kan would have been one of the early conquests of the empire, being quite close to Malaz isle, so it would make sense for it to be nder Imperial rule for a long time.

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There just seems to be a general sense of the Empire being younger that 100 years. Characters never speak of how their grandparents were Imperials, there's no sense of a long Imperial history outside the lifetimes of current characters, it just doesn't feel right.

The empire proper is certainly less than 100 years old, but empires generally date from their founding ie when malaz isle was conquered, the majority of the empire would not have been under Imperial Rule for 100 years, most of it probably came into the fold in the past 50 years thus not leaving much time for grandkids to have come about, and seeing as most of the characters we have met come from outside the early conqests of the empire (malaz, unta, region) it's not suprising we don't see them.

The only person we have seen with a grandfather in imperial service is Toc the Younger, who must be around 30, if his mother was 20 and Cartheron Crust seems to have had her after coming into the Imperial service and conquering Unta that gives the empire a large span of time...

Yes it might seem odd but I don't think we can doubt those dates, SE may have toruble with some dates but he's not going to drop 50 or so years from the age of the empire...

[Ellestra]

Dolorous Menhir said:

There is also the GotM age of Dujek (79) which, although often dismissed as a GotMism, conflicts with a 100 year old Empire since Admiral Nok says that Dujek was there from the beginning.

I always assumed that meant he looked 70 while being over 100 - being in Azath slowed his aging but didn't stop it.

[Dark Mac]

Imperial Historian said:

The empire proper is certainly less than 100 years old, but empires generally date from their founding ie when malaz isle was conquered, the majority of the empire would not have been under Imperial Rule for 100 years, most of it probably came into the fold in the past 50 years thus not leaving much time for grandkids to have come about, and seeing as most of the characters we have met come from outside the early conqests of the empire (malaz, unta, region) it's not suprising we don't see them.

We have seen some people from that area - The Crimson Guard. Many of them are over 100. And the CGRD only started after Kellenved took Unta, which wasn't even the first place he conquered.

[Jorram]

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Dunsparrow is young, but Whiskeyjack and the bridge burners are also young, they are never referred to as taking part in the early campaigns of the empire, the bridgeburners were formed on Seven Cities, a campaign which I believe took place about 10 years prior to the end of Kellanved's reign, ie 20 years ago

Hm, on the other hand Whiskeyjack remembers Surly as no more than a serving wench in the GotM prologue, doesn't he? It makes him not that young after all, eh?

[Aptorian]

Isn't that just a stab at her past? Her lowly upbringing being her weakspot... her trying to mold herself into a poweful, regal persona.

[Jorram]

Yes, so? My point is that WJ spoke as knowing her from back then (which makes him old enough to be there at the Empire's beginning).

"You must be feeling confident in the Emperor's absence. He's not the only one who remembers you as nothing more than a serving-wench down in the Old Quarter. I take it the gratitude's washed off long since." (GotM, MMPB, p. 7)

Even if he's speaking second-hand (and I don't think such is the case), surely a relative newcomer to the Malazan ranks wouldn't be so dismissive of the Clawmistress, had he not known her from before.

[Aptorian]

I was thinking it was ment as a referal to the rest of the old guard... and more importantly to every soldier and noble person in the empire. The empress past is exactly the stuff the malazan armies love to grumble about. Things like that has a way to seep down through the ranks. But more importantly... It's just an insult, ment to remind her that she once wasn't any more important than the people getting killed down in the Mouse.

And about his "dismissivness", it's Whiskeyjack. We've seen that he only respects people of honor and integritty. Before he died he would willingly had stood in the way of Brood, Rake and Kallor. When he was younger and under Dassem he showed as much class when chasing Quick, apparently when he met Fid.

[tiam]

IH- Nok says that there was a lad called dujek on malaz isle, no reference to him becoming dujek onearm, it's plausible that dujek onearm is related in some way to this first dujek, after all he is always called Dujek Onearm, whilst other characters generally only require a second qualifier if there is another of the same name around...

As he had both arms at this point i doubt he would be called Dujek onearm.

Also id say they would have to have been the same person. Given that Dujek was the only one who knew the emporers name (An obscure bit of info from GOTM) and was considered by some to be his heir it would have to be Dujek who knew him from when he owned Smileys. To have a lad named Dujek on Malaz who helped the Emporer then for someone named exactly the same thing get his arm bitten off in the Wickan wars by Bults horse then becoming a commander is far fethced. I thought that Dujeks second name was like Braven tooths Its obviosly not his second name (although no one really has 2nd names in these books) but id say its was Dujek from Malaz

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I don't think the timeline will be comletely sorted out for a long time. It will take several edition before SE irons it all out, if he even bothers. The inconsistencies don't bother me too much though, so oh well.

[Hume]

raymondluxuryyacht;111137 said:

I don't think the timeline will be comletely sorted out for a long time. It will take several edition before SE irons it all out, if he even bothers. The inconsistencies don't bother me too much though, so oh well.

Ditto

[tiam]

No it doesnt bother me either but if everyones trying to sort it out then i might aswell add my input. TBH i look at when it happened judge whether it will be relevant (like the MOI prologue isnt relevant in terms of time to the rest of the book) then dismiss whats not

[Dolorous Menhir]

The timelines don't work. That's all there is to say, really.

[Folken]

in the wise words of the Great Brain Eating Cat:

"The timeline is not important"

[Ellestra]

Werthead;72599 said:

That's about it for date references. TBH seems to cover a period of perhaps 3-4 months, probably no more, possibly less, thanks to magical speeding-up of the sea travelling (the Eres pushing the boats from the base of the Olphara Peninsular to Perish in what seems to be just a week or two, then through the Perish portal to the Horn of Quon Tali, then pushing them again to Malaz Island in just a few days). TBH therefore ends at the very end of 1164 or in the first month or two of 1165.

TBH took more then 3-4 months - Scillara went from not showing (probably 2-3 months along) to giving birth and then some stuff happened later so is more like around 7 months.

[ASAGO]

I agree with Weatherhead and Hetan GOM MI and BH are concurrent and all like chapters following one another DHG HOC BH. MT is kind of a prelude to HOC I think. anyways i love them all so far

[Ellestra]

Aptorian;111069 said:

Isn't that just a stab at her past? Her lowly upbringing being her weakspot... her trying to mold herself into a poweful, regal persona.

No lowly upbringing - she was Napan princess before she was serving wench.
But not many knew that

[cauthon]

I am wondering ... I think WJ is older than Dujek, as he once commanded Dujek when the latter was young. It would be strange for a commander to be even younger than a trooper, no?

As for Scillara, you can still not show anything at 4 months. so there's some time to play with there.