[Kurt Montandon]

Dolorous Menhir;217755 said:

I'm just asking what bit of GotM (or other book) was supposed to make us think he was a eunuch in the first place.

During the Fete at Simtal's, as Kruppe observes the silhouettes of a figure, being Lady Simtal about to fool around with Murillio:

"There are times, Kruppe murmurs, when celibacy born of sad deprivation becomes a boon, nay, a source of great relief."

It's on pp. 585 of my Tor copy. I noticed it on a re-read (no. 38, I think) I had carried out specifically to find incongruities with later books. While not a direct statement, it seems conclusive proof of the original intent to make Kruppe a man whose gluttony in thieving and eating are born from a lack of ability to be satiated in other ways. I have to admit, it would sharpen the mind to remain so ... undistracted.

[Aptorian]

Indeed, nothing in the above quote makes you think he's a eunuch. He's just going through a dry spell like the rest of us, erh... like some people do.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I agree with Aptorian and Hetan. That quote says that Kruppe has been celibate through lack of partners, not lack of equipment.

[Ringthane]

"celibacy born of sad deprivation"

this points to him not getting laid(celibacy) because he is unable to,(the sad deprivation). I see where kkmontandon's coming from.

[Zanth13]

dep·ri·va·tion /ˌdɛprəˈveɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[dep-ruh-vey-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the act of depriving.
2. the fact of being deprived.
3. dispossession; loss.
4. removal from ecclesiastical office.


I always took that as meaning he is depriving himself on purpose... weather it be cuz he doesnt want distraction, weakness ect ect... Kruppe is the ultimate manipulator, and he doesnt want the problems that come from women....

but doesnt mean he doesn't feel sad about not getting any booty...

though i could almost see how you could get the enuch theory from said quote...

[Aptorian]

xanth13;218459 said:

I always took that as meaning he is depriving himself on purpose... weather it be cuz he doesnt want distraction, weakness ect ect... Kruppe is the ultimate manipulator, and he doesnt want the problems that come from women....

After MoI you could certainly understand this.

[Kurt Montandon]

I'm gonna stick with the Kruppe-as-eunuch-as-a-GotMism interpretation. Just, well, because.

Besides, Hetan, you know who to ask ... though it's a rather low priority question.

[Kurt Montandon]

Hetan;220413 said:

Indirect yet indisputable proof that Kruppe had sex with Hetan and is therefore not a eunuch :

Er ... that's why I was calling it a GotMism. Those quotes are from MoI.

[Dolorous Menhir]

kmmontandon;221003 said:

Er ... that's why I was calling it a GotMism. Those quotes are from MoI.

Seriously, it's not a GotMism. It's you coming to a conclusion that reads too much meaning into Kruppe's words.

[ledhead73]

there is a difference between kenyll'rah and kenryll'ah. the kenryll'ah and kenyll'rah are almost alike , but the kenyll'rah are the subjects and the kenryll'ah are the warriors. they are taller thant a tiste edur on a horse, have basalt black skin, protruding silver top and bottom canines, large bodies, broad flat snouts, small eyes and an irregular breathing pattern.

kenryll'ah:
-2 ranking warrior brothers that kill the forkrul assail serenity
-the demon that killed nightchill

kenyll'rah:
-Lilac, Trull's friend, a net caster

[Dancer+]

Kruppe in GotM is just saying he is a celibate (for the moment at least), not that he is impotent.

It is not in any way a GotMism...

[Skywalker]

ledhead73;221332 said:

-2 ranking warrior brothers that kill the forkrul assail serenity

I don't think Serenity is dead... as far as I remember, the two brothers chased her to the rim of a very deep hole, where she jumped in.

Later the brothers got in the way of the BBs flashers and cussers.

Serenity however, is still at large.

EDIT: And I didn't catch the distinction between Kenyllah and Kenryllah... hmm... can you give any quotes to support this?

[Aptorian]

sky_walker;221517 said:

I don't think Serenity is dead... as far as I remember, the two brothers chased her to the rim of a very deep hole, where she jumped in.

Later the brothers got in the way of the BBs flashers and cussers.

Serenity however, is still at large.

EDIT: And I didn't catch the distinction between Kenyllah and Kenryllah... hmm... can you give any quotes to support this?

Besides being wrong the BB thing is a RG sort of spoiler, that said, it's true Serenity isn't dead, I think it's said one of the brothers threw her into the hole. Where the hole leads to is actually a good question, from the pee-ending we can deduce it's very, very deep. Probably some entrance to an underground KCCM city or maybe one of the FAs own lost cities.

The destinction between Lilac and the brothers lie in their station. There's an aristocracy that seems to be a warrior caste and then there's peasants. The destinction in spelling is correct, all though I', not sure of the variation ledhead spells out.

RG info:

Spoiler

The realm the Kenrylalala demons come from is apparently Aral Gamelon. The same place the Galayan lord and Pearl, the korvahla (sp?) came from. I have a feeling that Gamelon is a different dimension as independant as Wu is. Only with races that are a lot more freaky

[Dolorous Menhir]

sky_walker;221517 said:

EDIT: And I didn't catch the distinction between Kenyllah and Kenryllah... hmm... can you give any quotes to support this?

I just wrote a long response to that question in this thread.

I looked up all the names directly, so the spellings are correct. GotM and the body of MT spell it "Kenryll'ah", but the MT glossary puts the apostrophe in earlier - Ken'ryllah. Not an important difference, I think.

As for page references:

- a Kenryll'ah kills Nightchill (GotM UK mmpb p.77)
- Lilac the Kenyll'rah discusses his home, which is ruled by the Kenryll'ah and is at war with Korvalahrai forces. (MT UK mmpb p.767)

Midnight Tides, on UK mmpb p.770, said:

"This alliance you will attempt with the demon tyrants - what is the emperor seeking from it? What does Rhulad plan to offer in return?"

"Are you truly interested, son?"

"I am."

Uruth shot Fear a glance, then sighed. "The Korvalahrai are seafarers. They are reaching into the Kenryll'ah lands via a vast river, and even now approach the heart in a fleet carrying all the Korvalahrai. Rhulad's power is such that he can divert that river, for a time. The invading fleet will be destroyed in the conflagration. Achieving such a thing would in turn serve Edur needs, as well. In return, we are given more demons for our war, perhaps a minor Kenryll'ah or two, who are far better versed in the arts of battle than their subject Kenyll'rah."

And in diverting that river, Rhulad flooded the Nascent.

[Topper]

In GotM Hairlock is killed by a wave of sorcery, and when it hits Tattersail she describes it as cold.

Quote

"She saw a wave sweep past Hairlock's defenses, cutting him in half. His howl was more rage than pain, instantly muted as virulent power washed over Tattersail and she found her own defenses assailed by the sorcery's cold, screaming will as it sought to destroy her."

Presumably Tayschrenn's magic would not be cold, given that it is the Warren of Fire. Therefore, it could be assumed that that was a deflection of Rake's power by Tayschrenn. Calot on the other hand was killed by fire sorcery...

Quote

"A blast of bright fire engulfed him (Calot)."

...which makes little sense, as Tayschrenn would have no cause to kill Calot. Another stone in the proverbial shoe.

As for Nightchill I had assumed that it was more how it was described in MoI, and the other version is just a GotMism. Nightchill wanted Dragnipur, and knowing that A'Karonys supected her motives, she killed him-ignoring the sequence of events as described in GotM-Tayschrenn, having been warned by A'Karonys, knew that it was Nightchill. And he therefore unleashed a demon upon her, I do not think he summoned it then, not for the first time, there was probably already a link between him and the demon, therefore summoning it did not require any significant amount of power that would otherwise weaken his defenses or assault .

[Kurt Montandon]

Dolorous Menhir;222931 said:

As for page references:

- a Kenryll'ah kills Nightchill (GotM UK mmpb p.77)
- Lilac the Kenyll'rah discusses his home, which is ruled by the Kenryll'ah and is at war with Korvalahrai forces. (MT UK mmpb p.767)

In addition, it's a Kenryll'ah that is unleashed on the Ragstopper ... which makes Apt's taking it down that much more impressive.

[Aptorian]

Yeah, she took down a Kenrylalala with ease, the fight was decided by the Aptorians superior speed and agility though.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

A few comments...

A'Karonys uses a fire-based magic
Calot was killed by fire
Tattersail's feels the "...the sorcery's cold, screaming will " and it is the "will" that is cold and screaming, not the magic
Nightchill's name is a play on her "Sister of the Cold Nights" appelation; whether that is her true name or simply a description of her character I don't know, however the cold/chill part references her name, not the type of magic she uses

I have no particular opinion about who killed the various mages, but I do not think that Erikson has been sloppy or made a mistake. I believe he has been ambiguous in order to, among other reasons, stimulate this sort of debate (internal and otherwise) and to prevent the plot from unfolding (unraveling?) in a plodding, linear sort of way.

D.