[Nicodimas]

I can't figure out why this guy caught a bullet. I'm going to say this..I don't like the guys argument style. CC drop out. Somewhat unwillingly to change..but was growing.. calm down cowboys!

Sidebar: I 10,000 percent disagree with his concept that women aren't raped on the percentage he thought. He could not process this concept. People. All of us have a tough time sometimes with processing concepts. My belief from women..is it probably is more like eighty! percent of women are. Yes this makes me sad inside. That's awful. I'll leave that there. Culture Is really messed up imo.

Flip side time....

Ok I'll lead in. The concept of this is explain to me why this guy was actually hateful. I'm approaching this logically and relize I'm mainly talking to a bunch of folks who ..think and perceive their realities much different than I do. We as people have a very different experiences, upbringing , and core beliefs that simply differ. I respect each and everyone here. I may disagree, but love the way other people think! I have changed many many concepts over time and grown as a person based off talking. Sometimes I argue a point..simply too see how much I believe in my argument..No that doesn't make a troll. Yes, I have some concepts your simply never going to believe. That's your core ethos. You have a core thought process that's different.Thats lovely!! I don't think reality would be better if everyone thought Nico thoughts.

As adults I really hope we have different thoughts! The concept of freedom is in my very small opinion that.. we dont all think the same. Echo chambers kidna freak me out. I think that's important reality. If this thread draws anger ..don't. please step away..don't let other's steal your peace.

As adults we should always remember that. Your thought process is valued and that's why I think how I think..

However despite my lead in. Explain why kirk was hateful? I would like a video not a clip. As adults a segmented thoughts taken and snipped..isn't intellectually honest. I detest the media for that...burns me up.

https://www.facebook...e/r/1E1uvWQUY9/

Simple start. If a person doesn't believe in race..how are they a bigot? Maybe pure logic without the shared experience of those people that have had it... However how would a white male understand that experience without actually talking to other people ..and dare I say argue..be introduced to new concepts. I just don't get it ..lately..

If this thread devolves into a bunch of hate. Mods close totally cool!. That's never my actual intent. Nico just likes to converse across differences. I think it's fun to challenge your belief structures. However if your the type this angers. Breathe and simply walk away. What we believe in..can trigger strong emotional reactions. Don't let those define you.

Anyhow explain. I kind@ legit don't under the strong opinion people had against him..

Really trying to authentically understand. I'm not going to counter your points , this wont be argument structured, but I may ask follow up thoughts. I'll be polite.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 19 September 2025 - 03:10 AM

[amphibian]

https://www.vanityfa...tanehisi-coates

When a person whips up a decade plus audience of mostly impressionable bigots who like negative attention and have lots of guns, fills the spectrum with constant rhetoric of how doing violence to people and controlling them is good, and causes the occasional faction falling out over purity tests of bigotry, what do you think happens?

There doesn't have to be a coherent motive or a lead you by the video clip effort. Looking at his quotes and speeches yourself should do the job of showing you how thoroughly bigoted this guy was in words and action. Because he says one or a few times that he didn't see race doesn't mean he actually believes that or acts by that. He made a lucrative living stoking the fires of a white nationalist and fascist crowd while adding enough disclaimers that those who wanted to fig leaf the horrendous things he said could do that.

[Maark Abbott]

You can't figure out why a guy whose entire brand was based around bigotry and racism, whose modus operandi was having students 'debate' him in ways that could easily be set up to make him and his position look favourable but refused to debate professors et al, who stoked massive levels of division and contributed significantly to the rise of modern-day fascism in America was killed by someone within his own ideological camp because the said person did not believe he'd passed the current purity test of the alt-reich?

Really?

[Tsundoku]

Hey Maark, I thought the alleged killer was dating a transgender person?
So to me that sort of implies that while the alleged killer came from a MAGA background, he maybe ... wasn't? Or not completely.

[Tiste Simeon]

Tsundoku, on 19 September 2025 - 08:41 AM, said:

Hey Maark, I thought the alleged killer was dating a transgender person?
So to me that sort of implies that while the alleged killer came from a MAGA background, he maybe ... wasn't? Or not completely.

Based on who exactly is claiming this I remain sceptical as to it's authenticity.

[Tsundoku]

*shrug* everything is "apparently" or "allegedly" at the moment so I guess we'll all find out as it goes.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

The Guardian has a collection of Charlie Kirk quotes with links to the source---and for those from videos, the links inside the Guardian article include a large continuous chunk of the video for context.

On race (since you asked about that that in particular):

Quote

The American Democrat party hates this country. They wanna see it collapse. They love it when America becomes less white.

The great replacement strategy, which is well under way every single day in our southern border, is a strategy to replace white rural America with something different.

Happening all the time in urban America, prowling Blacks go around for fun to go target white people, that's a fact. It's happening more and more.

If you're a WNBA, pot-smoking, Black lesbian, do you get treated better than a United States marine?

If I see a Black pilot, I'm going to be like, boy, I hope he's qualified.

If I'm dealing with somebody in customer service who's a moronic Black woman, I wonder is she there because of her excellence, or is she there because of affirmative action?

If we would have said that Joy Reid and Michelle Obama and Sheila Jackson Lee and Ketanji Brown Jackson were affirmative action picks, we would have been called racists. Now they're coming out and they're saying it for us … You do not have the brain processing power to otherwise be taken really seriously. You had to go steal a white person's slot to go be taken somewhat seriously.


Charlie Kirk in his own words: 'prowling Blacks' and 'the great replacement strategy' | Charlie Kirk shooting | The Guardian

Kirk also said that the Civil Rights Act was a mistake and Martin Luther King was a "bad guy", though there isn't any video of that:

Quote

Kirk did say that it was a "huge mistake" to pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964. As the National Archives explains, the law "prohibited discrimination in public places, provided for the integration of schools and other public facilities, and made employment discrimination illegal." [...] In Kirk's view, the story explained, the Civil Rights Act has led to a "permanent DEI-type bureaucracy," [...] that has limited free speech. [...]Those comments are not available in the recordings posted to YouTube of the conference that year. The reporter who wrote the Wired story, however, confirmed to us that while attending the event as a journalist, he had witnessed the remarks, which were made not on the main stage, but in a smaller conference room.

Kirk also did not dispute the statement when he responded to an email from Wired the day before the story was published. Reading from the email, Kirk interjected to say that it was "true" that he had described King as "a bad guy" and "also true" that it was his "self-described very, very radical view that the country made a mistake when it passed the Civil Rights Act."

When the email asked why Kirk believes passing the legislation was a mistake, Kirk said, "Now, again, apparently, they don't listen to the show. Because we do that at least once a week, right? Once a week, we talk about why the Civil Rights Act was a mistake."

Viral Claims About Charlie Kirk's Words - FactCheck.org

I've been meaning to address some of the other issues raised in the comments here over in the USA Politics thread... I think it's a bit more complicated, and it's probably useful to have an accurate understanding.

[Maark Abbott]

Tiste Simeon, on 19 September 2025 - 09:30 AM, said:

Tsundoku, on 19 September 2025 - 08:41 AM, said:

Hey Maark, I thought the alleged killer was dating a transgender person?
So to me that sort of implies that while the alleged killer came from a MAGA background, he maybe ... wasn't? Or not completely.

Based on who exactly is claiming this I remain sceptical as to it's authenticity.

Yeah, this. The facts we DO know are that they are from a very Republican background, but everything else is just rumour at this point.

This notwithstanding, the man in question was a very unpleasant piece of work and honestly I am astounded that people have to ask why he was disliked in any capacity.

[HoosierDaddy]

Maark Abbott, on 19 September 2025 - 11:51 AM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 19 September 2025 - 09:30 AM, said:

Tsundoku, on 19 September 2025 - 08:41 AM, said:

Hey Maark, I thought the alleged killer was dating a transgender person?
So to me that sort of implies that while the alleged killer came from a MAGA background, he maybe ... wasn't? Or not completely.

Based on who exactly is claiming this I remain sceptical as to it's authenticity.

Yeah, this. The facts we DO know are that they are from a very Republican background, but everything else is just rumour at this point.

This notwithstanding, the man in question was a very unpleasant piece of work and honestly I am astounded that people have to ask why he was disliked in any capacity.

Because people are blinded and biased by their own viewpoint, especially when they are in a bubble. I and everyone in my circle loved Charlie Kirk, therefore, EVERYONE loved Charlie Kirk.

[Tsundoku]

Heh, I've already seen a comment in an article (Australian news website) that said "...we are all Charlie".
Just waiting for some "Je suis Charlie" stuff to come out a la Charlie Hebdo. Because that would be a complete parallel, right.
And I thought "no we fucking aren't". Just because I at least thought Kirk had some stones to go in and debate people, it doesn't necessarily follow I agreed with most of the stuff he said.
Whether you like his style or not, or whether he was "punching down" ... not sure. He started out with that "change my mind" stuff didn't he? Or was that someone else?
Anyhoo, I like I've said elsethread he at least didn't foam at the mouth like Trump, Bannon etc and at least appeared to have some manners. In public anyway.
I didn't previously know though about most of those quotes above. That's some ... serious stuff. I guess he was smart enough to have separate public and private personas.

But he's certainly proved even more useful to the right as the martyr they've been waiting for.

It still makes me chuckle how the biggest free speech advocates for years are (crickets) over all this recent stuff.
Just like the hard Left, it's not about free speech at all, it's about controlling speech and shutting down dissent.
It's free speech when we agree with it, and it's hate speech when we don't.
Honestly, I'd love to be able to lock all of them from both ends of the spectrum in a stadium, give them all baseball bats and say "have at it".

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 19 September 2025 - 01:30 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Tsundoku, on 19 September 2025 - 01:29 PM, said:

Anyhoo, I like I've said elsethread he at least didn't foam at the mouth like Trump, Bannon etc and at least appeared to have some manners. In public anyway.
I didn't previously know though about most of those quotes above. That's some ... serious stuff. I guess he was smart enough to have separate public and private personas.

But he's certainly proved even more useful to the right as the martyr they've been waiting for.

It still makes me chuckle how the biggest free speech advocates for years are (crickets) over all this recent stuff.
Just like the hard Left, it's not about free speech at all, it's about controlling speech and shutting down dissent.
It's free speech when we agree with it, and it's hate speech when we don't.
Honestly, I'd love to be able to lock all of them from both ends of the spectrum in a stadium, give them all baseball bats and say "have at it".

Most of those quotes are from his podcast, The Charlie Kirk Show, or from his public social media... so it's more a matter of him knowing how to strategically present himself to different audiences. Such as:

Quote

A US neo-Nazi fight club is using Charlie Kirk's killing to recruit new members

The same American-born neo-fascist fight clubs surging in numbers across the US and around the world, have capitalized on the assassination of far-right commentator Charlie Kirk, to entice new recruits with promises of vengeance and racist camaraderie.

These so-called "active clubs" are a loose collective of neo-Nazi mixed martial arts groups that gather at local gyms and parks to train, tapping into existing gangs of white nationalists or adjacent organizations. Global authorities view them as perhaps one of the most organized and pernicious domestic terrorism threats, emanating from far-right political ideologies.

"Active clubs are exploiting the assassination of Charlie Kirk for recruitment purposes, specifically urging white men to join the movement,"

A US neo-Nazi fight club is using Charlie Kirk's killing to recruit new members | Far right (US) | The Guardian

[Cause]

Tsundoku, on 19 September 2025 - 01:29 PM, said:

And I thought "no we fucking aren't". Just because I at least thought Kirk had some stones to go in and debate people, it doesn't necessarily follow I agreed with most of the stuff he said.
Whether you like his style or not, or whether he was "punching down" ... not sure. He started out with that "change my mind" stuff didn't he? Or was that someone else?
Anyhoo, I like I've said elsethread he at least didn't foam at the mouth like Trump, Bannon etc and at least appeared to have some manners. In public anyway.
I didn't previously know though about most of those quotes above. That's some ... serious stuff. I guess he was smart enough to have separate public and private personas.

He is infamous for punching down. The very concept of 'change my mind' is a practiced debater (who only gets more practice every time) shows up prepared to debate a topic he has prepared and researched and challenges random passerby's to debate him on abortion for example. We all have opinions but not all of us have informed opinions and certainly are not prepared off the cuff to eruditely defend them. Random passerbys and college students were his meat. College students are more informed them most but also critically are at a stage of their lives (most of them) where they are discovering their own beliefs which may be different to the ones they grew up with all their lives. They may be passionate but they are not necessarily always the best defenders of them.

He was repeatedly challenged by opposing influencers and he often ducked them. I believe Sam Seder and him had a bit of a rivalry or would attack one another indirectly but he refused to face him in a debate. I think Sam seder once effectively ambushed him on some 3rd party podcast and Charlie Kirk abandoned the show rather than continue,

Tsundoku, on 19 September 2025 - 01:29 PM, said:

It still makes me chuckle how the biggest free speech advocates for years are (crickets) over all this recent stuff.

To there credit I have seen some are. However the republican party, the right, Maga, and the far-right which are already at least 4 overlapping but distinct groups I would argue, can also always be divided even further into at least 2x more. Each group has members who have actual values/principles/beliefs and members who only exercise these concepts in furtherance of the goal of power (consciously or unconsciously). Free speech absolutist Elon Musk is a perfect example of someone who thinks he is the former but acts like the later. He bought twitter to fight censorship but he wields his power over X far more overtly and more pettily than anything he might have complained about before. The days of principled philosophers fighting for their beliefs are over if such a time ever truly existed.

For many Free-speech is only a tool to allow their bigotry free reign (White supremacists suffer when hate speech is banned), to defend misinformation as simply an alternate fact to your opinion (Vaccines do save lives, they do not cause harm). Its a tactic to discredit reality itself at times and to make everything simply a disagreement of beliefs which can have no winners, only factions that suceed in converting others or not.

[QuickTidal]

Nicodimas, on 19 September 2025 - 01:52 AM, said:

Simple start. If a person doesn't believe in race..how are they a bigot?

Because race exists whether a person wishes it to or not. Ignoring that it exists doesn't mean you get to "not believe in it" and dust your hands.

Moreover, I would put good money down on most people who think "race doesn't exist" are white. As such the term and associated issues that might stem from race don't affect them on the same level as it would everyone else. So they think they can safely disbelieve in it...

My buddy is a POC, family from Barbados...two small incidents to show the contrast. Once I saw him as we got into his car put his ID in the visor flap above the steering wheel...and I wondered why, and he said "So I don't have to move my hands a much if I'm pulled over"...this is not only something I would never do, but never even thought to do...and another time he and his dad (they lived in an affluent suburb where we grew up) were re-sealing their driveway together and some random white person stoped to tell them what a good job they were doing....and then asked how much they charged.

So yeah, Race exists. Pretending it doesn't makes you a bigot. It operates from a place of white privilege where the things that don't touch you don't seem to matter to you.

Nicodimas, on 19 September 2025 - 01:52 AM, said:

Maybe pure logic without the shared experience of those people that have had it... However how would a white male understand that experience without actually talking to other people ..and dare I say argue..be introduced to new concepts. I just don't get it ..lately..

So the only way you're willing to learn is by arguing with people? That's fucked up man. How about you try LISTENING. That's it man. Just listen. Listen to the experiences of those in that space and try to understand. Be they women, or POC, of LGBTQ+....just listen.

I'll even start you off. You want a good primer on what Trans people are about and what they go through, and their plight? Watch SENSE8, season 1, episode 9 "Death Doesn't Let You Say Goodbye", the Museum scene. Trans actress Jaime Clayton's character Nomi sets it out perfectly.

[Nicodimas]

@Amphibian

Ok one thing that was lost was the full context of a video. You and all of you are quite smarter than that. If you take a snippet from a bunch of different videos then of course you can make anyone appear to be a monster. Many times this man was incrediblely patient and friendly in this style of discourse.

I have found a few videos that he totally missed on though. You can see his conversation break down. However majority of the time..not seeing it. I would love your video breakdown on one. Your a smart fella and many of your conversations have got me thinking. Stay calm and remember I'm just a random dude on the Internet your discussing with.


@mark abbot

Yes I don't see it. Watching a bunch of his videos. He is peddling a common viewpoint many people share. Your being dishonest as its literally on his social media , family and friends took a different path then his upbringing. Happens all the time. He was reported to be antifa. Your parents ideology is not yours. He turned and left needs to own it.

@tiste
I get told many times not everything is a CT. Sometimes it is exactly what is painted. Antifa is incredibly violent. At pro abortion and anti trump rallys these people come with long guns. These people have at least twice almost shot. We leave rallys when antifa shows up. Too dangerous if you attend these rallys! Leave.

@azath
A negative will always create a negative. We are adults and we know Kirks killing will someday have a bad ramification.

On the plus side 30k turning point chapters were made. A whole state out one in every high school. The concept has always been to bring peaceful discussions and to share opinions. Kirk always had that at his core. The concept of the 1st amendment was to keep people talking and venting.

@Qt: the no race thing brings white privilege is a troubling concept. I have been exploring this alot over the years. Some concepts are just too idealistic for reality. I get that. We all hold some idealistic thoughts that don't agree with how reality works ( think Americans abandoning guns..cause that's the only way that occurs..not yet too many fears in the way. Different topic just a concept of idealistic thoughts some here have that doesn't agree with how daily reality is. I believe that's the concept of culture.)

I do see how that was not listening to the struggles of a group however with his concept that black culture in America was destroyed is interesting. I think he didn't understand the systemic racism that occurs after the 60s. They put section eight housing all together next to the black communities. I would love a society that dropped that in the rich neighborhoods. In Phoenix that's how it is. In Phoenix black people were denied white neighborhoods and put into these areas.

However his message was through culture this could change. I liked his message if the Jews had everything destroyed and were slaughtered , how did that intergenerational trauma not reflect in modern America/European society. I would argue the Israel regime is that trauma personified though. However his point was in ongoing society question is how and what can we do to improve this struggle. His concept was a strong family unit and funny enough not having kids too early(and God obviously...god solves problems and all that but then gave us free will).


@QT: one of my peeps in my group who was raised very Cis ..had kids with thier now x wife and is now transitioning. Guess they have really.For context I always find it remarkable we found Jessica Alba in Idle Hands way back when. They know I don't really get it, but still friends you know ? I'm just not evolved enough to understand. The hard part is this decision cost him his wife , well for fairly obvious reasons, then their job as they kept having to prove everyone wrong..
Their struggle is real, but still go to football with them. Hah. Still the same person.I believe her point to me is you went to much Church! /Fairpoint. I distanced myself from catholicism after the raping of boys and all that mind ya. (As adults there is that point if it's all about people chasing power. That empowerment seems to be all about sex. That's a entirely different and messed up part of reality.)

To your point..If your having a conversation with the left it always turns into a argument these days honestly. They have to be right on everything..hence the echo chamber. You must agree..
In my friends group most of the left are no longer talking to right. Nazis and extremists is what they counter with. It's frankly sad. I have been saying that is dangerous. This concept of labeling comes from communist progragada in the thirties to empower the political party. Sad to see something one hundred years old come full circle. It's probably old as time as divise tactic.

Not healthy at all. We have far more in common then not.

I remember when the left was very anti war. I remember when the left would die for your rights and your opinions. That is what liberalism is..well I thought. I find it funny as I have grown that I am basically some version of liberal, but not the modern left. (I ain't right either! I do understand clearly why and how Trump came to power. If the left accepted that, worked with that ..they would win the next election..however they would need to come to terms with some things in their own party structure which seems not even remotely close at this time. So Vance 2028 it is...)

@Qt: I'll backpedal. Arguing. Talking. His concept was we need to talk to understand more. Arguing is conflict right? The concept of listening is to understand and reflect. I think this is honestly something we should all strive for and to well do better. I may counter points, but that doesn't mean it doesn't cause self reflection. We all need to give each other a bit more credit on this front.

@qt: I do indeed love this book series. I just find it fascinating that people that read this book series have a very different viewpoint than I share. Mainly for your 2 cents.

@ all: Kirk held some strong beliefs for sure. Truly religious people are tough as lots of absolutes. The modern lefts main core belief is government. I have struggled with that for ages. When half the concept of politic/governments simply views reality different, to think governments the solution to ills when right around the corner a Trump exists.

Anyhow.

Yet no videos that show his full argument. The dude was extremely patient. I didn't love his style of argument. He was growing from ten and five years ago even. He did have a few crazy ones too. Many people do.

(Kirks wife/family went to my parents church. /abadCatholic. They grew up a skips throw away from me. I work a block from her high school. Him being killed really resonated. We know a good portion of the country don't like us. Think Nazis and extremists of us. The majority of people are just trying to survive, have families and live our best lives. It was harder to see they now want us dead and buried based off the support of him dieing. Scary times. That's more how that response felt and resonated. However we must all forgive others of their hate inside too)

If I missed your point , or context please elaborate more. It's basically impossible to flesh out a point in a single post.

I encourage this to continue as I know this is a hot topic. I never would need to dismiss , or belittle your argument by merely countering. If I do I apologize from the get go. We are all collections and experiences of knowledge. Keep that in mind. I have learned to read. Consider. Think. Wait. Then post a little bit later.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 25 September 2025 - 03:51 PM

[QuickTidal]

Nicodimas, on 25 September 2025 - 03:39 PM, said:

Ok one thing that was lost was the full context of a video. You and all of you are quite smarter than that. If you take a snippet from a bunch of different videos then of course you can make anyone appear to be a monster.

You know who didn't need his comments to have long ass context applied to them to be lionized and considered a good person? Mr. Rogers.

I'm not going to reply to the rest of your comments...as you're all over the place and I don't think it's worth my time.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Nicodimas, on 25 September 2025 - 03:39 PM, said:

@mark abbot

Yes I don't see it. Watching a bunch of his videos. He is peddling a common viewpoint many people share. Your being dishonest as its literally on his social media , family and friends took a different path then his upbringing. Happens all the time. He was reported to be antifa. Your parents ideology is not yours. He turned and left needs to own it.

Do you mean Tyler Robinson's videos? A quick search turned up nothing. His trans girlfriend posted some social media videos though:

Quote

There is also a TikTok account linked to Twiggs with nine videos posted. One shows a person holding a toad, with filter effects including lightning and fire. Another video shows filming a bathroom, with the text overlay "It's still worter theory."

Another video shows Twiggs wearing a hat and headphones, eating something, and the clip then cuts to a person looking down at an animal before cutting to a clip of another animal, and then a person skateboarding, then a person holding up their hands, then two dogs.

In another video, Twiggs appears to be seen wearing a yellow hat with ears opening a cookie tin. In another video, Twiggs puts spaghetti on a sandwich.

The content indicates little about their lives, and Robinson does not appear.

In the reposts section of the account, it is shown that Twiggs reposted a video about Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. shortly after the election. "Rfk Jr's brain worm telling him to outlaw soda and replace it with battery acid to combat adhd and autism." The post references Kennedy's previous disclosure of a brain worm.

https://www.newsweek...l-media-2129970

Nicodimas, on 25 September 2025 - 03:39 PM, said:

@azathA negative will always create a negative. We are adults and we know Kirks killing will someday have a bad ramification.

On the plus side 30k turning point chapters were made.

Well there you go...

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 25 September 2025 - 05:59 PM

[Maark Abbott]

Nicodimas, on 25 September 2025 - 03:39 PM, said:

@mark abbot

Yes I don't see it. Watching a bunch of his videos. He is peddling a common viewpoint many people share. Your being dishonest as its literally on his social media , family and friends took a different path then his upbringing. Happens all the time. He was reported to be antifa. Your parents ideology is not yours. He turned and left needs to own it.

"Left needs to own it"

Why do we need to own groypers, who are further right than Kirk? Please explain this. Why do we on the left need to own nazis when nazis kill nazis? This is an in-house thing. There is nothing dishonest about us looking in from the outside and thinking 'well this was to be expected'.

Also I am very interested to know how 30,000 chapters of a hate group being created and people trying to force those into schools is a good thing.

But then again I also don't think you have interest in any level of discussion given that you are confused as to why a fascist was shot.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Maark Abbott, on 26 September 2025 - 07:39 AM, said:

Nicodimas, on 25 September 2025 - 03:39 PM, said:

@mark abbot

Yes I don't see it. Watching a bunch of his videos. He is peddling a common viewpoint many people share. Your being dishonest as its literally on his social media , family and friends took a different path then his upbringing. Happens all the time. He was reported to be antifa. Your parents ideology is not yours. He turned and left needs to own it.

"Left needs to own it"

Why do we need to own groypers, who are further right than Kirk? Please explain this. Why do we on the left need to own nazis when nazis kill nazis? This is an in-house thing. There is nothing dishonest about us looking in from the outside and thinking 'well this was to be expected'.

Also I am very interested to know how 30,000 chapters of a hate group being created and people trying to force those into schools is a good thing.

But then again I also don't think you have interest in any level of discussion given that you are confused as to why a fascist was shot.

The evidence for him being a groyper was always extremely weak and based almost exclusively on speculation. When he was a teenager he once incorporated Pepe the frog into a Halloween costume and once dressed as Trump for Halloween, but those were years before the shooting. (A professor who studies and infiltrates far-right internet communities also pointed out that Pepe had not become strongly associated with the far right at the time that photo was posted.) The memes on the bullets are not at all exclusive to or primarily associated with groypers---and most of them are either clearly anti-fascist or seem to be mocking transphobia and homophobia.

Quote

Given this initial collection of facts, progressives had cause for entertaining the idea that Robinson was a white nationalist, but none for asserting it as an established fact.

If the "groyper" theory lacked a solid factual basis, however, it offered considerable psychological appeal. It is uncomfortable to accept that you share a worldview — or even, a few strong moral convictions — with perpetrators of terrible crimes. To avoid such discomfort, people often latch onto improbable narratives. [...]

On Tuesday, authorities in Utah filed charges against Tyler Robinson for aggravated murder. Three pieces of evidence in the indictment suggest that Robinson objected to Kirk's politics from the left:

Robinson's mother told investigators that her son "had become more political and had started to lean more to the left — becoming more pro-gay and trans-rights oriented." His mother also said that he had begun "to date his roommate, a biological male who was transitioning genders."

Robinson had texted a confession to his roommate after the shooting, referring to the roommate as "my love" and saying of Kirk, "I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out."

Robinson's parents told investigators that he had explained his crime to them in similar terms, saying that Kirk "spreads too much hate."

Charlie Kirk killing motive: How Jimmy Kimmel got Tyler Robinson's politics wrong | Vox

They're almost certainly going to enter the text messages into evidence and call Robinson's roommate and mother to testify in court. Do you think the text messages were forged and the roommate is lying as part of a grand right-wing conspiracy?

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 26 September 2025 - 11:24 AM

[Macros]

I have no problem accepting the shooter had leaned left.
Political leanings are irrelevant, he shot someone in cold blood, that's his leaning, murderer. Does him being left wing tip the scales remotely towards the left being the most prevalent in violence? Seriously doubt it.
The angle here is not who or why Kirk was shot, the angle was why do/ did people direct hate at Kirk and Nico not understand9ng where that came from.

I think Nico is either trolling for teh lolz or he genuinely is so blinkered in his own world view he simply can not see how some of the things Charlie said and stood for do not equate to a loving, free or equal society, and he rarely debated anyone with actual debate chops or preparation.

[amphibian]

I don't think this is going anywhere productive. Nico can happily climb the self created mountain of believing in the fig leaf efforts of a virulent white supremacist all he wants without my continued participation in this.

Why is it so important to Nico that Kirk wasn't a virulent white supremacist? Only he can answer that question.