[Chance]

Traveller, on 27 April 2023 - 01:54 PM, said:

I wonder if the state of the world in general is a factor here. When times are good, looking for something different in dark fantasy is escapism.

Think your so right. The last few years have changed the world for most of us and for most our personal situation have developed over the last decade and a half or so.

This post has been edited by Chance: 27 April 2023 - 06:07 PM

[Cause]

Age may be part of it, but I think its also a product of our times.

A friend once told me back in the 2000s I think that the zombie fad at the time, it was in tv shows and movies, was a reflection of the world existing in a long time of economic growth and prosperity. When thigns go well we welcome a taste of fictional depridation.

After covid, inflation, political turmoil worldwide dark stories are not what we crave. Instead as you say we crave stories of the light peaking through the darkness.

[QuickTidal]

Traveller, on 27 April 2023 - 02:04 PM, said:

Tsundoku, on 27 April 2023 - 01:03 PM, said:

Notable exception: Lego Masters - Australian version, they're all total Lego geeks loving it, having fun and encouraging each other. I had heard the US version was just full of arseholes though unfortunately.

This. Also Australian Masterchef is a bright, positive take on the whole food show thing. It's much lighter and far more tolerable than the bleak criticism and overall drab, lifeless UK/US versions.

Gods the US MASTERCHEF has small shining moments of greatness, but is almost ALWAYS ruined as a whole by people like Joe, or that redhead chef being complete and total assholes to the chefs. Their fucking AMATEUR chefs Joe, they are trying....

But yeah, I'm under no compunction to believe that Joe and whoever else being assholes isn't ENTIRELY baked into their idea cause it sells...

The only US one worth a damn is the kids version because Gordon is his normal nice self with them, and no one is tearing them down dishes that don't work.

For a show that I find really good and light without viscera that's upsetting, the ALL CREATURES GREAT & SMALL reboot (just finished it's 3rd season on BBC/PBS)...It's like TED LASSO, when you sit down to an episode you know you're going to be entertained but nothing that would not happen in the rural English countryside is going to come and hit you.

I feel like this is easily also true of THE DETECTORISTS obvs.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 27 April 2023 - 03:11 PM

[Traveller]

I was watching an Asian channel the other night, NHK news maybe, and there was this program that just showed 72 hours in an obanyaki stall in Japan. It was just so calming, and it was notable because it's become so rare to see people just being pleasant to each other, enjoying their work, and regular customers that return each day for something made with a bit of care.

I don't need serial killer profiles, just give me a guy making stuffed pancakes.

[QuickTidal]

Traveller, on 27 April 2023 - 04:13 PM, said:

I was watching an Asian channel the other night, NHK news maybe, and there was this program that just showed 72 hours in an obanyaki stall in Japan. It was just so calming, and it was notable because it's become so rare to see people just being pleasant to each other, enjoying their work, and regular customers that return each day for something made with a bit of care.

I don't need serial killer profiles, just give me a guy making stuffed pancakes.

LOL! I would 100% watch that!

Yes. I used to watch un-subtitled NHK News....just cause it was super calming compared to our news over here.

I also will throw on those 4k drone footage of different places and cities you can find on YouTube, and just chill or leave it on the in background. SUPER calming. HERE'S A great one with tonnes of locals just living their lives in it.

And yeah, there's a guy who goes live on TikTok for hours just walking around Japanese city streets, frequently in the rain....and I've never FELT so damned calm.

Another show you should check out is THE MAKANAI: COOKING FOR THE MAKO HOUSE on Netflix, it's really charming unchallenging Japanese TV (done by humanist Kore-Eda)

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 27 April 2023 - 04:28 PM

[Macros]

I totally agree with all of this

Never been a horror fan, I do not understand the appeal of Saw et all.

Same with unrelenting grim. Warhammer has its bright spots, like QT says, gaunt is about fighting back and holding to hope. JA has humour, but I have found his last trilo leaning almost to far into the shit. Conversely Hereos is my favourite book of his.

Life is too short to reading or watching pure depressing grim

[Abyss]

My shining example of Grimdark done right is Stover's BLADE OF TYSHALLE.

The MC is put through absolute hell. Every time it seems as though things cannot go worse, it goes way WAY worse and then MORE worse.
It is depressing and borderline painful to read and it just rolls on and on. The B storyline, presumably included because the protagonist is so thoroughly in the shit that Stover figured we would need a break, goes just as brutal in a different way. The bad guys aren't just winning, they are destroying the heroes and it genuinely seems as tho the heroes cannot possibly survive much less win.

But... when the turnaround comes, when the MC 'puts his head down and starts inching toward daylight'... it, is fucking, GLORIOUS.

This could only work as book two in a series because the reader knows enough from book one to have that thin shred of faith (book pun intended) that things will turn, but it works so SO well. Books 3 and 4 never go back down into the same hole, but they do remind the reader that the characters dragged themselves broken and bleeding out of that mess.

[champ]

Well put, Abyss. I don't think there's a fucking better example of grimdark done fucking correctly than BoT... I really want to reread that fucking series now.. Fuck...

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 27 April 2023 - 06:50 PM, said:

But... when the turnaround comes, when the MC 'puts his head down and starts inching toward daylight'... it, is fucking, GLORIOUS.

Yes. This is the candle against the darkness thing I referred to. When there is something coming, or something present that elevates it....I don't mind at all I you put the protagonist through some shit...if the goal is worth it.

[champ]

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2023 - 07:09 PM, said:

Abyss, on 27 April 2023 - 06:50 PM, said:

But... when the turnaround comes, when the MC 'puts his head down and starts inching toward daylight'... it, is fucking, GLORIOUS.

Yes. This is the candle against the darkness thing I referred to. When there is something coming, or something present that elevates it....I don't mind at all I you put the protagonist through some shit...if the goal is worth it.

I ususally use the term "light" when talking about it with friends but I like this better!

[QuickTidal]

champ, on 27 April 2023 - 07:20 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2023 - 07:09 PM, said:

Abyss, on 27 April 2023 - 06:50 PM, said:

But... when the turnaround comes, when the MC 'puts his head down and starts inching toward daylight'... it, is fucking, GLORIOUS.

Yes. This is the candle against the darkness thing I referred to. When there is something coming, or something present that elevates it....I don't mind at all I you put the protagonist through some shit...if the goal is worth it.

I ususally use the term "light" when talking about it with friends but I like this better!

Bringing things full circle in the thread, I kind of stole it from Matt Stover in his REVENGE OF THE SITH novelization. It was a quote before one of the chapters I think:

“The dark is generous and it is patient and it always wins – but in the heart of its strength lies its weakness: one lone candle is enough to hold it back."

[champ]

Great quote from Stover.

QuickTidal, on 26 April 2023 - 07:13 PM, said:

Does anyone else feel this way? I feel like sometimes I'm quite alone. I've even been seeking out much lighter fiction to read as anything to deeply fucked up ruins my day.

Reading the thread I don't think you're quite alone as you thought!

This post has been edited by champ: 27 April 2023 - 08:12 PM

[worry]

You’re all alone, together…kinda like…a horror movie!

[Tiste Simeon]

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2023 - 07:33 PM, said:

champ, on 27 April 2023 - 07:20 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2023 - 07:09 PM, said:

Abyss, on 27 April 2023 - 06:50 PM, said:

But... when the turnaround comes, when the MC 'puts his head down and starts inching toward daylight'... it, is fucking, GLORIOUS.

Yes. This is the candle against the darkness thing I referred to. When there is something coming, or something present that elevates it....I don't mind at all I you put the protagonist through some shit...if the goal is worth it.

I ususally use the term "light" when talking about it with friends but I like this better!

Bringing things full circle in the thread, I kind of stole it from Matt Stover in his REVENGE OF THE SITH novelization. It was a quote before one of the chapters I think:

“The dark is generous and it is patient and it always wins – but in the heart of its strength lies its weakness: one lone candle is enough to hold it back."

Or to use the Bible, "The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it." There should always be hope!

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Just thinking about Ted Lasso giving me nightmares gave me nightmares (here's hoping thinking about thinking about Ted Lasso giving me nightmares doesn't give me nightmares (the gift that keeps on living (death)...)). Kept waking up from them again for the first time in a long time last night, and ended up sleeping much later than usual, throwing me off for much of the day. Damn you Ted Lasso!

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 27 April 2023 - 02:31 AM, said:

What sort of nightmares did Ted Lasso give you?

Awkward social situations involving people who expect me to act like Ted Lasso and never criticize their ideas while they're saying and believing terribly incorrect things. I wake up (that's what makes it a nightmare, technically) with my brain whirring in overdrive, feeling like an overheated computer trying on multiple cores to 'solve' the social situation, and it usually takes me a while to remind myself that it is not an actual situation at all, but just a simulation of a possible one.

There's a traditional expectation among many people in the United States that you should act like Ted Lasso and, as How to Win Friends and Influence People (a very 'American' book) puts it, 'never criticize' and do not correct.

Ted Lasso is not a light against the darkness. Ted Lasso is the darkness.

And part of the voracious darkness that eats the brains of 'Americans', leaving room for the black holes of conspiracy theories like QAnon to metastasize (alongside the original sin that that darkness most likely evolved to in order to obscure, religion...).

For those of you familar with Bakker---Ted Lasso is

Spoiler

The No-God.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 28 April 2023 - 01:17 AM

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Macros, on 27 April 2023 - 05:20 PM, said:

I totally agree with all of this

Never been a horror fan, I do not understand the appeal of Saw et all.

Same with unrelenting grim. Warhammer has its bright spots, like QT says, gaunt is about fighting back and holding to hope. JA has humour, but I have found his last trilo leaning almost to far into the shit. Conversely Hereos is my favourite book of his.

Life is too short to reading or watching pure depressing grim

Macros put it perfectly.

I've never loved unrelenting grim, but I found I couldn't really cope with anything heavy (even with hope) during the pandemic and I wouldn't say I've fully regained a taste for it. I've really got to be in the mood. For example, I bailed on my last Malazan re-read part way through Bonehunters. I still love the series, but whereas I used to be able to pick them up and go at any time, I've now really got to be in the right frame of mind.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 28 April 2023 - 08:35 AM

[QuickTidal]

Azath Vitr (D, on 28 April 2023 - 12:54 AM, said:

Just thinking about Ted Lasso giving me nightmares gave me nightmares (here's hoping thinking about thinking about Ted Lasso giving me nightmares doesn't give me nightmares (the gift that keeps on living (death)...)). Kept waking up from them again for the first time in a long time last night, and ended up sleeping much later than usual, throwing me off for much of the day. Damn you Ted Lasso!

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 27 April 2023 - 02:31 AM, said:

What sort of nightmares did Ted Lasso give you?

Awkward social situations involving people who expect me to act like Ted Lasso and never criticize their ideas while they're saying and believing terribly incorrect things. I wake up (that's what makes it a nightmare, technically) with my brain whirring in overdrive, feeling like an overheated computer trying on multiple cores to 'solve' the social situation, and it usually takes me a while to remind myself that it is not an actual situation at all, but just a simulation of a possible one.

There's a traditional expectation among many people in the United States that you should act like Ted Lasso and, as How to Win Friends and Influence People (a very 'American' book) puts it, 'never criticize' and do not correct.

Ted Lasso is not a light against the darkness. Ted Lasso is the darkness.

And part of the voracious darkness that eats the brains of 'Americans', leaving room for the black holes of conspiracy theories like QAnon to metastasize (alongside the original sin that that darkness most likely evolved to in order to obscure, religion...).

If you're watching TED LASSO and think that the message is "never criticize"....then man you're taking the wrong messages/lessons from the show, holy shit.

The fact that you think TED LASSO is darkness...scares me. Americans are really really deep in their own culture aren't they? Like it's so bleak in your country that lightness and kindness is seen as a weakness or a darkness.

Like if you watched the news pressers with Ted and the papers in the first season and missed him correcting all the wrong info in his own way, I'm not sure what to say.

When something is deeply wrong and incorrect, it gets corrected. This seasons' arc with Trent Crimm is exactly that in fact.

And Ted himself is literally riddled with anxiety...no what Ted and crew do is not criticize the UNCHANGEABLE. The things that CAN change DO change (like Jaime going from egotistical prick in S1 to a cheerleader of all his friends in S3) as a result of Ted and the team. Feel free to criticize that which can be changed, the show does this, but be kind about that which cannot.

Azath Vitr (D, on 28 April 2023 - 12:54 AM, said:

And part of the voracious darkness that eats the brains of 'Americans', leaving room for the black holes of [/size]conspiracy theories like [size="2"]QAnon to metastasize (alongside the original sin that that darkness most likely evolved to in order to obscure, religion...).

I can't really believe you've conflated TED LASSO with Q anon conspiracies. Again, a DEEPLY American worldview. Let's be clear, the Q anon thing is worldwide and it's a cult....we've seen many cults in human history....these cults have not sprung up because Americans watch something like TED LASSO...they spring up because humans are fallible, and frequently gullible, and once you're in it's VERY hard to get out. Deprogramming is a real thing for a reason. This particular cult sprung up in the face of people who COULD not accept that an opposing "team" was in political office and wanted a "fight" and some asshole at 4-Chan trolling...gave them one to fight. They didn't come to this because of some supposed American trait of never criticizing...

That's like saying Columbine is the result of videos games and Marylin Manson...it's simply not and it's silly to suggest it.

I don't care that you don't like TED LASSO....but the idea that it IS darkness is anathema to the intent of the show.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

QuickTidal, on 28 April 2023 - 11:46 AM, said:

If you're watching TED LASSO and think that the message is "never criticize"....then man you're taking the wrong messages/lessons from the show, holy shit.

The fact that you think TED LASSO is darkness...scares me. Americans are really really deep in their own culture aren't they? Like it's so bleak in your country that lightness and kindness is seen as a weakness or a darkness.

Like if you watched the news pressers with Ted and the papers in the first season and missed him correcting all the wrong info in his own way, I'm not sure what to say.

When something is deeply wrong and incorrect, it gets corrected. This seasons' arc with Trent Crimm is exactly that in fact.

And Ted himself is literally riddled with anxiety...no what Ted and crew do is not criticize the UNCHANGEABLE. The things that CAN change DO change (like Jaime going from egotistical prick in S1 to a cheerleader of all his friends in S3) as a result of Ted and the team. Feel free to criticize that which can be changed, the show does this, but be kind about that which cannot.

Azath Vitr (D, on 28 April 2023 - 12:54 AM, said:

And part of the voracious darkness that eats the brains of 'Americans', leaving room for the black holes of conspiracy theories like QAnon to metastasize (alongside the original sin that that darkness most likely evolved to in order to obscure, religion...).

I can't really believe you've conflated TED LASSO with Q anon conspiracies. Again, a DEEPLY American worldview. Let's be clear, the Q anon thing is worldwide and it's a cult....we've seen many cults in human history....these cults have not sprung up because Americans watch something like TED LASSO...they spring up because humans are fallible, and frequently gullible, and once you're in it's VERY hard to get out. Deprogramming is a real thing for a reason. This particular cult sprung up in the face of people who COULD not accept that an opposing "team" was in political office and wanted a "fight" and some asshole at 4-Chan trolling...gave them one to fight. They didn't come to this because of some supposed American trait of never criticizing...

That's like saying Columbine is the result of videos games and Marylin Manson...it's simply not and it's silly to suggest it.

I don't care that you don't like TED LASSO....but the idea that it IS darkness is anathema to the intent of the show.

Even when it comes to outright slander against himself, Ted Lasso struggles greatly against his own suffocating darkness to try to tell a journalist the actual truth---iirc he's basically stuttering like a broken machine, struggling in a round-a-bout way to get around to insinuating what could be remotely construed as a criticism of something that's factually inaccurate. It's certainly one of the few moments of 'light' in the show---light barely breaking through the miasma.

Ted Lasso is the darkness of willful ignorance. The demonization of critical thinking.

Of course, he is a reflection or an ambassador of that kakos, rather than the cause.

Cultivating willful ignorance makes it much easier for QAnon to flourish; and it's most popular by far in the United States.

I contributed to it personally when proto-Trump voters were spouting far-right conspiracy theories, racist and xenophobic shit, etc. and I just listened without criticizing. (After Trump's ascension, I stopped doing that.)

But don't let Ted Lasso seduce you into setting up your own societies for ruin as well.

And I actually like the show, fwiw. (Though not enough for it to be worth the nightmares.)

(Hopefully it's clear that much of this is tongue in cheek. But yes, it did actually give me nightmares. And so did thinking about it giving me nightmares....)

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 28 April 2023 - 12:16 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

I'm still never sure how much Azath is just attempting to be a (pretty poor) troll when he posts.

[amphibian]

Ted Lasso's first two seasons were about moving on from being scared and mired in grief and into earnest pursuit of something you wanted.

Ted disguises his major grief at failing as a husband + parent with the people pleasing at first. As he dials it back a bit, it turns out he really enjoys it and feeds off the team unity it builds with management and players alike.

Roy is losing his career as a top of line player.

Jaime is grieving his shit father and the pressure on him.

Keeley is the healthiest of them all, yet still figuring out what to do post glam career, which is a bit of a grieving thing but not as much as the other story lines.

Rebecca is turning spite into pursuit of endeavors that reward her for being the smart, beautiful woman that she still is post Rupert.

Nate is grieving that nobody took him
seriously for all those years, which is really not healthy. We know somewhat how that story always ends up and I think the writers won't let him get a fully saccharine ending of redemption.

The show's biggest problem is that it doesn't give Keeley much of a story line beyond be a career woman and smooch Roy. The women in this show have gotten better stories before and should keep getting them.