[QuickTidal]

So I've been noodling this concept over in my head now for a little while, and I'm curious what everyone else's take is.

I find that as I age, my tolerance for something that is bleak for the sake of bleak....AKA no lightness or lightness is constantly countered....has waned.

Like things I might have been interested in reading/watching/consuming in my 20's, I very much have begun to abhor in my 40's.

BLACK MIRROR, THE BOYS, BREAKING BAD, YELLOWJACKETS ect. type stuff....like if the dark nature of the fiction is SO relentless that it's hard to get out from under...I start to REALLY draw lines I'd never have drawn 20 years ago.

I'll give you a deep dive example from reading.

Joe Abercombie. I read THE BLADE ITSELF in 2006 when it came out.

In 2006 I was 29, and at 29 I was fine with what Joe was doing, subverting tropes, turning character builds on their heads, and basically giving us stories that essentially say "Real life sucks, this is real, and in reality no one is truly good or bad"...I mean FFS the most followable character in that first trilogy is a TORTURER....and in the newest trilogy it's that torturers morally bankrupt daughter. I enjoyed those books. I stomached everything I was being fed. But as time wore on and I stuck by Joe as an author I enjoyed, something began to change. And by the time I reached THE HEROES, I was not that guy anymore. In fact, I have tried and failed to read THE HEROES all the way through 3 times. The OTT violence, and bleakness just completely derails me every time.

So I've come to the realization that I simply can't read Abercombie anymore. I read the first book of the most recent trilogy and stopped.

Now, this isn't to say that I can't deal with bleakness or darkness, or grimness...far from it....but I find 46 year old me needs some lightness to counteract it, some heroics, some goodness. It needs to be bleak FOR A REASON. The candle needs to be present to highlight the darkness. I don't need some entirely Happy ending...but give me something, some reason to get to the end and feel satisfied that it was worth something.

So like Warhammer 40k. The Grimmest of grimdark settings, right? Yeah, but the 40k content I consume (Gaunt's Ghosts being the biggest one) is a bunch fo soldiers who are living in that grimdark but struggling to do the right thing, and bring light to the admittedly bleak proceedings. That's the difference.

So much modern content is bleak for bleak sake I think, and I simply am turned off by that. Call me old I guess. I dunno if it's just aging, or if my mothers death has caused me to seek out lighter fare, or hell maybe the pandemic is such a global trauma that I can't dive into the bleak anymore....I don't know.

It's why I like TED LASSO....there's viscera and conflict on that show, but it's couched in the lightest and most wholesome characters you could ask for. When Is it down to watch an episdoeof TED LASSO I know I'm not going to be challenged to feel shitty in the service of a story or shock value, and that IF something bad happens, it's being done in service to a wider story that is attempting to help me escape. I don't know how anyone can "escape" watching shit like BLACK MIRROR.

Does anyone else feel this way? I feel like sometimes I'm quite alone. I've even been seeking out much lighter fiction to read as anything to deeply fucked up ruins my day.

[Chance]

I actually had a talk with my brother about The Blade Itself a few days ago, saying pretty much what you do and really the only of Joe's books that I might consider re-reading these days is Red Country which was also the last of his books that I've read. Tried The Heroes several times but never could get into it.

I think for me its about the misery having a point I can enjoy something like The Steel Remains, Low Town, Blackwinged or even The Court of Broken Knives under the right circumstances but that is mainly because those books have an acceptable misery to awesomeness ratio. The amount of entertainment and awesomeness required seems to rise with time. My acceptance of certain kinds of "stupid grimdark" has certainly lessened with time, religious asholery, sexual violence and violence against kids need to be really well done for me to not merely make me want to throw away books. Part of why I really struggled with the first half of the Broken Crown. There is enough of that shit in the real world, if it is needed in a book imply it don't describe it I got a lively imagination so implications is more than enough.

Sometimes however I belive both writers and hollywood has lost a bit of subtility in the last decades. Not everything needs to be shown. Perhaps even somethings should not be shown.

This post has been edited by Chance: 26 April 2023 - 08:08 PM

[champ]

I don't have much time to respond at the minute but I'm in total agreement.


It is the reason why I stopped watching Walking Dead in the 2nd season. It was just too bleak and with no light ahead. I do not consume media to be made depressed. There has to be some spark of hope ahead for me to be interested or I just drop it now.


One of my mates comes over and we watch shows together, we have a rule as they like all those types of shows... one no hoper episode a week. First ep we watch to get it out the way then onto the good stuff... Still more than enough for me.


It's why we're only 5 eps into The Last of Us... aye it's a good show but just not my type of show...

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

QuickTidal, on 26 April 2023 - 07:13 PM, said:

So I've been noodling this concept over in my head now for a little while, and I'm curious what everyone else's take is.

I find that as I age, my tolerance for something that is bleak for the sake of bleak....AKA no lightness or lightness is constantly countered....has waned.

Like things I might have been interested in reading/watching/consuming in my 20's, I very much have begun to abhor in my 40's.

BLACK MIRROR, THE BOYS, BREAKING BAD, YELLOWJACKETS ect. type stuff....like if the dark nature of the fiction is SO relentless that it's hard to get out from under...I start to REALLY draw lines I'd never have drawn 20 years ago.

I'll give you a deep dive example from reading.

Joe Abercombie. I read THE BLADE ITSELF in 2006 when it came out.

In 2006 I was 29, and at 29 I was fine with what Joe was doing, subverting tropes, turning character builds on their heads, and basically giving us stories that essentially say "Real life sucks, this is real, and in reality no one is truly good or bad"...I mean FFS the most followable character in that first trilogy is a TORTURER....and in the newest trilogy it's that torturers morally bankrupt daughter. I enjoyed those books. I stomached everything I was being fed. But as time wore on and I stuck by Joe as an author I enjoyed, something began to change. And by the time I reached THE HEROES, I was not that guy anymore. In fact, I have tried and failed to read THE HEROES all the way through 3 times. The OTT violence, and bleakness just completely derails me every time.

So I've come to the realization that I simply can't read Abercombie anymore. I read the first book of the most recent trilogy and stopped.

Now, this isn't to say that I can't deal with bleakness or darkness, or grimness...far from it....but I find 46 year old me needs some lightness to counteract it, some heroics, some goodness. It needs to be bleak FOR A REASON. The candle needs to be present to highlight the darkness. I don't need some entirely Happy ending...but give me something, some reason to get to the end and feel satisfied that it was worth something.

So like Warhammer 40k. The Grimmest of grimdark settings, right? Yeah, but the 40k content I consume (Gaunt's Ghosts being the biggest one) is a bunch fo soldiers who are living in that grimdark but struggling to do the right thing, and bring light to the admittedly bleak proceedings. That's the difference.

So much modern content is bleak for bleak sake I think, and I simply am turned off by that. Call me old I guess. I dunno if it's just aging, or if my mothers death has caused me to seek out lighter fare, or hell maybe the pandemic is such a global trauma that I can't dive into the bleak anymore....I don't know.

It's why I like TED LASSO....there's viscera and conflict on that show, but it's couched in the lightest and most wholesome characters you could ask for. When Is it down to watch an episdoeof TED LASSO I know I'm not going to be challenged to feel shitty in the service of a story or shock value, and that IF something bad happens, it's being done in service to a wider story that is attempting to help me escape. I don't know how anyone can "escape" watching shit like BLACK MIRROR.

Does anyone else feel this way? I feel like sometimes I'm quite alone. I've even been seeking out much lighter fiction to read as anything to deeply fucked up ruins my day.

Abercrombie is hilarious, and there's plenty of 'goodness' (even a substantial quantity of relative innocence) in The First Law and The Age of Madness, as well as at least some of the 'standalones'.

The audiobook narrator is particularly good at drawing out the humor without getting hammy.

Ted Lasso gave me terrible nightmares. Seriously. I had a very hard time sleeping well for months afterwards. It should come with trigger warnings (kidding about that last part---but then again, maybe it should...)....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 26 April 2023 - 08:54 PM

[Abyss]

I'm ok w the grimdark. I need it to have a point, but that's a basic literary requirement, i don't like humor for humor's sake and violence for violence's sake either, it has to feed the story. I was just engaged in a prolonged discussion on reddit about Bakker's ASPECT EMPEROR and that series is practically the poster child for horrible in all its cannibal rapey glory, but it works for me because it's going somewhere i want to see and the author earned my trust by the time people were going all rapey cannibal. I enjoyed THE HEROES, i ack it is way more violent and ugly than JA's prior books, but that was the point and he was clear about that from the start, in commentary and in the book.

Interestingly where i line up w the OP is movies. I cannot find the motivation to watch a movie, however gloriously awarded and lauded and applauded, that appears to be intended to depress me with its bleak story... movies about great human tragedies, battles where 'the good guys lost', where the main character is a pathetic beaten down soul just trying to get by.... nah, i'm good, tnx. I can pause a book whenever i want, a movie is a two hour commitment and i just can't find a good reason to feel bad for two hours however pretty the pictures may be to look at.

[Tiste Simeon]

I'm mostly with you QT I used to love the violence and darkness but now I'm a bit like this just feels a bit edgelord. Like you can tell it's going to be cringe if women seem destined for rape or grisly murder to enable the valiant anti-hero to go on a killing spree.

Champ re: your comment on the Last of Us, I would consider that a notable exception as it explores the themes of humanity, relationship, loss and hope against the backdrop of extreme darkness. If we take what this thread is about, IE grim for grim's sake, I personally don't think it counts but I see where you're coming from.

[Primateus]

I agree, Warhammer 40k is very grimdark, or has been, at least. But in the last couple of years it has actually turned around a bit. Added a bit of light to the setting, a bit of hope.

[worry]

It really depends on the context. If an author/creator is saying there's no light at the end of the tunnel, I stoically nod my head in agreement. But if they're saying there's no light at the end of the tunnel for me, that's when I start to go "Hey wait a minute..."

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Azath Vitr (D, on 26 April 2023 - 08:54 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 April 2023 - 07:13 PM, said:

So I've been noodling this concept over in my head now for a little while, and I'm curious what everyone else's take is.

I find that as I age, my tolerance for something that is bleak for the sake of bleak....AKA no lightness or lightness is constantly countered....has waned.

Like things I might have been interested in reading/watching/consuming in my 20's, I very much have begun to abhor in my 40's.

BLACK MIRROR, THE BOYS, BREAKING BAD, YELLOWJACKETS ect. type stuff....like if the dark nature of the fiction is SO relentless that it's hard to get out from under...I start to REALLY draw lines I'd never have drawn 20 years ago.

I'll give you a deep dive example from reading.

Joe Abercombie. I read THE BLADE ITSELF in 2006 when it came out.

In 2006 I was 29, and at 29 I was fine with what Joe was doing, subverting tropes, turning character builds on their heads, and basically giving us stories that essentially say "Real life sucks, this is real, and in reality no one is truly good or bad"...I mean FFS the most followable character in that first trilogy is a TORTURER....and in the newest trilogy it's that torturers morally bankrupt daughter. I enjoyed those books. I stomached everything I was being fed. But as time wore on and I stuck by Joe as an author I enjoyed, something began to change. And by the time I reached THE HEROES, I was not that guy anymore. In fact, I have tried and failed to read THE HEROES all the way through 3 times. The OTT violence, and bleakness just completely derails me every time.

So I've come to the realization that I simply can't read Abercombie anymore. I read the first book of the most recent trilogy and stopped.

Now, this isn't to say that I can't deal with bleakness or darkness, or grimness...far from it....but I find 46 year old me needs some lightness to counteract it, some heroics, some goodness. It needs to be bleak FOR A REASON. The candle needs to be present to highlight the darkness. I don't need some entirely Happy ending...but give me something, some reason to get to the end and feel satisfied that it was worth something.

So like Warhammer 40k. The Grimmest of grimdark settings, right? Yeah, but the 40k content I consume (Gaunt's Ghosts being the biggest one) is a bunch fo soldiers who are living in that grimdark but struggling to do the right thing, and bring light to the admittedly bleak proceedings. That's the difference.

So much modern content is bleak for bleak sake I think, and I simply am turned off by that. Call me old I guess. I dunno if it's just aging, or if my mothers death has caused me to seek out lighter fare, or hell maybe the pandemic is such a global trauma that I can't dive into the bleak anymore....I don't know.

It's why I like TED LASSO....there's viscera and conflict on that show, but it's couched in the lightest and most wholesome characters you could ask for. When Is it down to watch an episdoeof TED LASSO I know I'm not going to be challenged to feel shitty in the service of a story or shock value, and that IF something bad happens, it's being done in service to a wider story that is attempting to help me escape. I don't know how anyone can "escape" watching shit like BLACK MIRROR.

Does anyone else feel this way? I feel like sometimes I'm quite alone. I've even been seeking out much lighter fiction to read as anything to deeply fucked up ruins my day.

Abercrombie is hilarious, and there's plenty of 'goodness' (even a substantial quantity of relative innocence) in The First Law and The Age of Madness, as well as at least some of the 'standalones'.

The audiobook narrator is particularly good at drawing out the humor without getting hammy.

Ted Lasso gave me terrible nightmares. Seriously. I had a very hard time sleeping well for months afterwards. It should come with trigger warnings (kidding about that last part---but then again, maybe it should...)....

What sort of nightmares did Ted Lasso give you?

[Tsundoku]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 27 April 2023 - 02:31 AM, said:

What sort of nightmares did Ted Lasso give you?

He wakes up in Kansas.

[champ]

Tiste Simeon, on 26 April 2023 - 09:03 PM, said:

Champ re: your comment on the Last of Us, I would consider that a notable exception as it explores the themes of humanity, relationship, loss and hope against the backdrop of extreme darkness. If we take what this thread is about, IE grim for grim's sake, I personally don't think it counts but I see where you're coming from.

Aye know what you mean and you are correct, I did hesitate to include it here, I think I just have an issue with zombie style shows in general.

[Traveller]

I have the same issue with the horror genre. Books and movies. I used to eat that stuff up, and now I just cannot see the point of movies like Saw or anything that is just people being destroyed for entertainment.

Abercrombie for me is different, because I absolutely love his dark humour. Yes, there's a scene where someone is being tortured but it actually gets a laugh because of the way it's written. I did read his latest; I was not blown away, maybe that time has passed.

I think it's just an aversion to excessive negativity as I get older. I prefer stories of journeys where people are learning something, accepting age or developing experience, things that fill you up a bit.

TV dramas, families arguing, people cheating on each other; I avoid it all like the plague now. Serial killers given their own dramatisation, what the actual fuck. Real victims turned into TV.

I read the story of Musashi last year, it took a while, but it was a real journey.

And now I've discovered Earthsea. Ursula writes so beautifully, I can't believe I've never read these stories before. Simple, uncomplicated but meaningful. Way, way ahead of its time. I've even bought the small hardback versions with slightly embossed covers, just so I can sit out in my reading spot with a real book with a real story.

It's like reading a ghibli movie (I know they actually made one, I'm cautious about watching it as I've heard there are a lot of changes) as there are so many quiet reflective scenes that are, in my head, the equivalent of those Miyazaki scenes where he animates food cooking or water pouring just for the beauty of small everyday moments.

The very opposite of the grim shit that seems so prevalent at the moment.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 27 April 2023 - 11:28 AM

[QuickTidal]

Chance, on 26 April 2023 - 07:55 PM, said:

Sometimes however I belive both writers and hollywood has lost a bit of subtility in the last decades. Not everything needs to be shown. Perhaps even somethings should not be shown.

This cannot be overstated. There's so much needless salaciousness, like when HBO still tries to hit its old-school mandate of "prestige" TV with over the top pointless nudity or extra gory violence to show you how "worth it" your subscription to the channel was.

Shit, that Netflix movie 6 UNDERGROUND with Ryan Reynolds was a prime example, just gouts of blood and shock violence for 2 hours. I could not stomach it.

champ, on 26 April 2023 - 08:01 PM, said:

It is the reason why I stopped watching Walking Dead in the 2nd season. It was just too bleak and with no light ahead. I do not consume media to be made depressed. There has to be some spark of hope ahead for me to be interested or I just drop it now.

TWD is a good example. That story has the potential to REALLY tell compelling story about an apocalypse, and the struggles humans would have to go though to rebuild society and prevail....but instead it's basically "Everyone is awful to some degree, people constantly die, and we keep having to move to new areas until someone is inevitably awful again and we have to move"....like I recall thinking it would be fascinating to see them building a sensible world out of the ashes of the old one....but nope, the show is simply all about the gore and human suffering.

Zombie shows in general put me off for this reason.

Traveller, on 27 April 2023 - 11:23 AM, said:

I have the same issue with the horror genre. Books and movies.

Yep. When I was younger I could easily watch horror...but I can't even re-watch the horror movies I watched as a youth now.

Traveller, on 27 April 2023 - 11:23 AM, said:

I think it's just an aversion to excessive negativity as I get older. I prefer stories of journeys where people are learning something, accepting age or developing experience, things that fill you up a bit.

When I used to recommend like an action or science fiction movie to my dad in my 20's he'd always say "I don't really like 'shoot-em-ups'" and it used to baffle me....but I get it now that I'm 20 years older. I am starting to feel the same way.

Traveller, on 27 April 2023 - 11:23 AM, said:

TV dramas, families arguing, people cheating on each other; I avoid it all like the plague now. Serial killers given their own dramatisation, what the actual fuck. Real victims turned into TV.

1000%. The most poplar TV dramas are shit like SUCCESSION which sounds like it's about awful people being awful to each other over money, and WHITE LOTUS which sounds like it's about awful people being awful to each other over money AND sex...like I have ZERO interest.

That Dahlmer show....like the victims families are still around....but yeah, let's get a viral hit out of a serial killers life. Disgusting.

Hell, even a decade ago I was listening to every episode of MY FAVOURITE MURDER with rapt fascination....and then one day I was like "what am I doing? This is vile stuff to listen to" It was actively making me feel miserable all the time. I'm so glad I stopped. Nothing against Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstarrk, but I feel like in hindsight the sensationalizing of murderers and serial killers is...not right.

Here's a really decent article about why true crime is so problematic at a base level.

Traveller, on 27 April 2023 - 11:23 AM, said:

I read the story of Musashi last year, it took a while, but it was a real journey.

And now I've discovered Earthsea. Ursula writes so beautifully, I can't believe I've never read these stories before. Simple, uncomplicated but meaningful. Way, way ahead of its time. I've even bought the small hardback versions with slightly embossed covers, just so I can sit out in my reading spot with a real book with a real story.

It's like reading a ghibli movie (I know they actually made one, I'm cautious about watching it as I've heard there are a lot of changes) as there are so many quiet reflective scenes that are, in my head, the equivalent of those Miyazaki scenes where he animates food cooking or water pouring just for the beauty of small everyday moments.

The very opposite of the grim shit that seems so prevalent at the moment.

YES. Absolutely, and I have MUSASHI on my ToRead pile.

Try REBEL SKIES by Ann Sei Lin....also very much like a Ghibli story come to life in a novel.

I've been actually filling my ToRead pile with older classic fantasy, or new fantasy that is deliberately NOT grim. I find my life is just lighter without the extra dark shit.

[Tiste Simeon]

I feel like I want to make a caveat to my original post. Action movies with OTT silly violence that lean into the silliness somewhat (e.g. Bullet Train, Nobody, Gunpowder Milkshake...) are still very much my bag. But I think those are a far cry from what we discuss here, e.g. yes there's a lot of blood and violence but at the same time they're not being "hurr Durr see my violence and how dark we are!" More "watch this dude murder this other dude while the third dude hangs off the end of a train that's being blown up and it all looks ridiculous and cool!"

[Tsundoku]

Agreed with pretty much all of the above. I read and watch TV/films to escape. Misery is not escape.
But then again I've never really been into horror etc, although I used to like thrillers a lot more than now.
I can't even watch most reality TV because instead of encouraging people helping each other they're promoting the very opposite. Even dating shows FFS! Because the nasty side of human nature is what rates. Well fuck that.

Notable exception: Lego Masters - Australian version, they're all total Lego geeks loving it, having fun and encouraging each other. I had heard the US version was just full of arseholes though unfortunately.

It's probably why I didn't mind that Legends and Lattes book a few months back. Just ... nice. "Cozy fantasy". Not something I'd read all the time mind you, but it didn't piss me off, or take itself too seriously, or have an excess of shitty people doing shitty things. The Mrs called it a fantasy equivalent of a Mills & Boon or Harlequin romance novel because it is a certain formula that puts you in a specific feelings/mindspace. I'll take her word for it.

Just sick of nasty for the sake of it. Gratuitous. It's why I noped out after book 1 of R Scott Bakker ages ago, even if the story and worldbuilding seemed interesting.
Even the "nice" characters were shitty. Get enough of that in the real-life news where the bad guys always win.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 27 April 2023 - 01:07 PM

[QuickTidal]

Tiste Simeon, on 27 April 2023 - 01:00 PM, said:

I feel like I want to make a caveat to my original post. Action movies with OTT silly violence that lean into the silliness somewhat (e.g. Bullet Train, Nobody, Gunpowder Milkshake...) are still very much my bag. But I think those are a far cry from what we discuss here, e.g. yes there's a lot of blood and violence but at the same time they're not being "hurr Durr see my violence and how dark we are!" More "watch this dude murder this other dude while the third dude hangs off the end of a train that's being blown up and it all looks ridiculous and cool!"

See and I agree....and I LOVE BULLET TRAIN (it was only of my fave movies of last year)....the cartoonish nature of that film is very much still my wheelhouse because it's ridiculous and leans entirely into that.

My example of 6 UNDERGROUND tried to play it all serious and that's what I think turned me off, it was being garishly cartoonish while trying to tell some serious story.

OLD GUARD is a good middle ground example, a few scenes of OTT gore and violence, but not wall to wall, and in service to a really compelling story.

But yeah, I agree with the overall point that these are exceptions to what we are taking about here.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 27 April 2023 - 01:16 PM

[Traveller]

I wonder if the state of the world in general is a factor here. When times are good, looking for something different in dark fantasy is escapism.

When you have the current global tensions, American States tipping backwards into what used to be considered as the image of a dystopian fantasy, and the slide of popular entertainment into the dark side of... everything, I guess it's natural to start looking for something light and uplifting to lose ourselves in.

Musashi is awesome by the way, just a series of stories about characters on the same path, intertwined - have you seen Samurai Champloo? I didn't realise how many things I've watched have clearly had this story as a source/influence.

[QuickTidal]

Traveller, on 27 April 2023 - 01:54 PM, said:

I wonder if the state of the world in general is a factor here. When times are good, looking for something different in dark fantasy is escapism.

I think you're right. We only need look to the 70's. Things sucked in real life, poverty and crime were at all time highs, drug use was killing a LOT of people, and the vast majority of film was focused around dark shit....and into that decade came a dude who told a really simple story about good triumphing over evil in space.

There's a reason STAR WARS was a hit. The public was dying for something to lift them up out of the shit of that decade. And if you hear Lucas talk about it even today he notes that he wanted something escapist and fantastical for the masses.

So yeah, maybe we've dipped so far back into the dark as a world and people have begun looking to rise above that into the light of escapism.

[Traveller]

Tsundoku, on 27 April 2023 - 01:03 PM, said:

Notable exception: Lego Masters - Australian version, they're all total Lego geeks loving it, having fun and encouraging each other. I had heard the US version was just full of arseholes though unfortunately.

This. Also Australian Masterchef is a bright, positive take on the whole food show thing. It's much lighter and far more tolerable than the bleak criticism and overall drab, lifeless UK/US versions.

[Traveller]

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2023 - 02:02 PM, said:

Traveller, on 27 April 2023 - 01:54 PM, said:

I wonder if the state of the world in general is a factor here. When times are good, looking for something different in dark fantasy is escapism.

I think you're right. We only need look to the 70's. Things sucked in real life, poverty and crime were at all time highs, drug use was killing a LOT of people, and the vast majority of film was focused around dark shit....and into that decade came a dude who told a really simple story about good triumphing over evil in space.

There's a reason STAR WARS was a hit. The public was dying for something to lift them up out of the shit of that decade. And if you hear Lucas talk about it even today he notes that he wanted something escapist and fantastical for the masses.

So yeah, maybe we've dipped so far back into the dark as a world and people have begun looking to rise above that into the light of escapism.

Iirc, in one of his rare interviews before he got pissed off with it all, this is pretty much what Alec Guiness said. He just went back in to watch it; it was an uplifting escape from life on the street at the time. Obviously for many others, too.