[Cyphon]

Lol. I mean I can't rule it out but I'm not ruling it in either.

[Abyss]

Nightchill or Endest at some point states that the Hovercano is an early Kchain city, older than the skykeeps that became Moons Spawn and Drift Avalii, presumably older than the dragon cities we saw in DoD/TCG.

Honestly I kind of love the concept. Environmental sensitivity was not a KChain virtue.

[tiam]

Abyss, on 25 April 2023 - 03:34 AM, said:

Nightchill or Endest at some point states that the Hovercano is an early Kchain city, older than the skykeeps that became Moons Spawn and Drift Avalii, presumably older than the dragon cities we saw in DoD/TCG.

Honestly I kind of love the concept. Environmental sensitivity was not a KChain virtue.

Yes that's what we mean Drift Avalii isn't actually a sky keep.

Also not sure if I'm misremembering but did it state that there were 7 Matrons? So essentially 1 per continent. Be interesting to see if we see any more of Damisks god from TGINW

[Abyss]

I don't think that refutes Avalii as a skykeep - we saw in OST that skykeeps are HUGE. Moon's Spawn essentially creates a small island chain when it falls.
A broken one that cannot surface but 'floats' as it travels w currents or a course that was plotted in before it sank would make sense, and unlike the Hovercano it didn't boil the seas around it.

That said it could also be a chunk of K'Chain dragon city stuck sideways and grown over.

[worry]

Also, if I remember correctly, Drift Avalii has some sort of legendary 'big bad' somewhere in its depths? A higher tier KCCM fits the bill.

Anyway, I guess I'm just saying it's probably not this specific mountain, but I do think it's a derelict KCCM 'artefact' of unknown make, model, and year, so it's not just some quirk of the sea that it putters around in a circle. Maybe all this was hinted at before this book, but if so I forgot it.

[Abyss]

worry, on 26 April 2023 - 02:31 PM, said:

Also, if I remember correctly, Drift Avalii has some sort of legendary 'big bad' somewhere in its depths? A higher tier KCCM fits the bill.

I vaguely recall in HoC Andarist makes a comment about Cutter not waking someone...? but i think the line was 'not wake him'.

Quote

Anyway, I guess I'm just saying it's probably not this specific mountain, but I do think it's a derelict KCCM 'artefact' of unknown make, model, and year, so it's not just some quirk of the sea that it putters around in a circle. Maybe all this was hinted at before this book, but if so I forgot it.

Agreed, not the same mountain. There are leftover K'Chain cities and mechanisms all over the place. Also, the opening to MT suggested the Skykeeps were Nah'ruk innovations, not Che'malle, and when we see the Nah'ruk in TB and later, they show up in Skykeeps while the last Che'malle have a dragon city (i love these books so so much).

[ArchieVist]

Abyss, on 20 April 2023 - 06:57 PM, said:

Ships - y'know, given the sheer amount of time on ships in this book it's kind of astounding that there wasn't one on the cover, tho we did get the nautical navigation tools at the bottom of the pic.

My interpretation of the cover (assuming its meant to show an actual scene from the book) is that it's Tayschrenn standing on the deck of the Twisted defending the Malazan navy in the harbor outside Cabil. So that bit on the bottom is the ship.

[Abyss]

ArchieVist, on 26 April 2023 - 03:49 PM, said:

Abyss, on 20 April 2023 - 06:57 PM, said:

Ships - y'know, given the sheer amount of time on ships in this book it's kind of astounding that there wasn't one on the cover, tho we did get the nautical navigation tools at the bottom of the pic.

My interpretation of the cover (assuming its meant to show an actual scene from the book) is that it's Tayschrenn standing on the deck of the Twisted defending the Malazan navy in the harbor outside Cabil. So that bit on the bottom is the ship.

Since posting the above i took a closer look and realized that yes, that IS a ship and it's likely supposed to be the bit at the end where Tays is slapping around the Cult mages during the seige.

...but we don't actually see the ship so it doesn't count.

[polishgenius]

Took me a while to finish, for some reason, but I like this one. Gotta say I had almost the opposite impression to you on the scope/thread/connectedness- this felt more like a main-series (from either author) Malazan book than any of the previous. Even if the actual aim of the book was smaller-scale (it was pretty much, as the title indicates, about waking Tayschrenn up, and almost everything including the volcano was about getting him there). But with the march of armies, the convergence, etc, it felt bigger in scale than the earlier three in this series.



A little note on 'all of us on Dassem'- it definitely makes Dassem look badass, but it's worth noting that Gwynn had tried to raise his magic against Tays and Tays just completely no-sold it and shut it down. Like a second before, that was the trigger for going for Dassem. So they'd definitely noticed his presence too, they just had no direct answer for it. My read was they needed to get through Dassem to get to Tays physically.



I liked Gianna's plot, with Mael. He's always been kinda irreverent, disliking pomp and ceremony, so their meeting being non-epic but still having epic consequence was fun to me. The only thing was it got a bit repetitive - escape, recapture, escape, recapture, she even did the diving-in-the-ruins thing twice.


Mallick has always been an odd character to me. I quite enjoy the end premise of his arc- that despite being a completely amoral bastard he's a better emperor than either Kellanved or Lasseen, pretty much because being the emperor is actually what he wants to be, rather than being constantly driven by other motivations. But his route to get there just isn't particularly plausible, because he's so obviously, clearly untrustworthy that I find it difficult to buy that anyone falls into his machinations. That was true in MBtoF and it's exactly the same here at the beginning.

[worry]

polishgenius, on 01 May 2023 - 11:16 PM, said:

because he's so obviously, clearly untrustworthy that I find it difficult to buy that anyone falls into his machinations.

Turns out this is the most realistic part of his arc.

[Abyss]

polishgenius, on 01 May 2023 - 11:16 PM, said:

...
Mallick has always been an odd character to me. I quite enjoy the end premise of his arc- that despite being a completely amoral bastard he's a better emperor than either Kellanved or Lasseen, pretty much because being the emperor is actually what he wants to be, rather than being constantly driven by other motivations. But his route to get there just isn't particularly plausible, because he's so obviously, clearly untrustworthy that I find it difficult to buy that anyone falls into his machinations. That was true in MBtoF and it's exactly the same here at the beginning.

worry, on 02 May 2023 - 01:17 PM, said:

polishgenius, on 01 May 2023 - 11:16 PM, said:

because he's so obviously, clearly untrustworthy that I find it difficult to buy that anyone falls into his machinations.

Turns out this is the most realistic part of his arc.

Both things are true. Mallick has never been exactly subtle so much as effective at showing his pawns their interests line up w his, and that he's bluntly willing to throw anyone under the bus if it's in his interest to do so so they better make sure it isn't. Magnify this to an Empire level and you have essentially the ideal emperor who is willing to work with whoever and do whatever to maintain the empire and smart enough to recognize that happy willing only somewhat in fear of their lives subjects are better pawns than terrified people certain they are one misstep from execution. Mallick rewards efficacy and success and (for the most part) punishes incompetence, not failure.

Contrast w what we've seen of Kellanved - and i credit ICE and the PoA series w showing us this - who is a very effective leader and emperor, almost despite himself, but for whom the Empire was a transient step to something more interesting, not the goal in itself.

...which brings us to an interesting question - when (not 'if') Mallick decides to make a play for godhood/immortality what won't he be willing to do to make it happen? The example of Kallor willing to sacrifice an empire or three for his own longevity is right there. How long before Rel decides he can take the lessons of Kallor, and Kellanved, and do it better? Kallor sacrificed his Empire(s) for immortality. Kel gave up the Empire but left it standing. We've been told repeatedly that a God-ruled empire is a bad idea (see also how things went for various Jaghut Tyrants passing themselves off as gods).... but Mallick Rel is certain he's smarter than everyone else, and he learns from his failures.. hell the man has managed to fail his way upwards from priest to cult leader to high mage to revolutionary leader to the Malazan Emperor. If Karsa comes along and displaces him during the Witness trilo he'll probably recover as Father Light 2.0.


...dammit now i sort of really want that to happen.....

[Cyphon]

Sorry stupid question, but if Laseen's aim wasn't to be empress, what was it?

[tiam]

Abyss, on 26 April 2023 - 03:09 PM, said:

worry, on 26 April 2023 - 02:31 PM, said:

Also, if I remember correctly, Drift Avalii has some sort of legendary 'big bad' somewhere in its depths? A higher tier KCCM fits the bill.

I vaguely recall in HoC Andarist makes a comment about Cutter not waking someone...? but i think the line was 'not wake him'.

Quote

Anyway, I guess I'm just saying it's probably not this specific mountain, but I do think it's a derelict KCCM 'artefact' of unknown make, model, and year, so it's not just some quirk of the sea that it putters around in a circle. Maybe all this was hinted at before this book, but if so I forgot it.

Agreed, not the same mountain. There are leftover K'Chain cities and mechanisms all over the place. Also, the opening to MT suggested the Skykeeps were Nah'ruk innovations, not Che'malle, and when we see the Nah'ruk in TB and later, they show up in Skykeeps while the last Che'malle have a dragon city (i love these books so so much).

The waking him point I always though pointed to Rake. I actually really like the idea that this is Drift Avalii and there's loads of KCCM on the island underneath.


EDIT- I think Laseens goal wasn't really to rule an empire but to take back her royal line of Nap which they did in the last book. This book she essentially sat in Unta who have been a problem for Nap and the southern seas. I wonder if she simply wished to use Kell and his cause to get Nap back and seems to have spent time consolidating it. So more of a Napan royal family than a Malazan emperor if that makes sense.

This post has been edited by tiam: 02 May 2023 - 05:32 PM

[polishgenius]

Cyphon, on 02 May 2023 - 01:55 PM, said:

Sorry stupid question, but if Laseen's aim wasn't to be empress, what was it?

She aimed to be Empress in the literal sense at the time she took the throne, but her arc in general is more of a frothing ball of insecurity, generalised ambition, and rage than any actual goal. Initially her aim was revenge and restoration of the Napan line. Obviously things got bigger than that eventually, then she's got tension with Kellanved right from the start because he's basically an upstart who's stepped over her, in her eyes. When she does take the throne for real it's in part because she thinks they need a permanent stable leader and she should be it coz she's regent anyway, rather than because she ever set out to take that role. And she got so paranoid and (possibly) guilty over actually having done it that her reign was spent veering between trying to recover from the loss of the Old Guard and being unable to replace them because she killed or ran off anyone who might become a threat. Rather than ruling.

Contrast to Mallick, who basically just doesn't give shit- he's incredibly self-secure (and smug) and that gives him the emotional distance to not get tied in knots.


(ps: I re-read the Dassem/Crimson Guard scene, Gwynn isn't trying to take on Tays when he raises his warren, he's trying to get them out of there. But then Tays stops them)

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 02 May 2023 - 05:51 PM

[Abyss]

polishgenius, on 02 May 2023 - 05:49 PM, said:

Cyphon, on 02 May 2023 - 01:55 PM, said:

Sorry stupid question, but if Laseen's aim wasn't to be empress, what was it?

She aimed to be Empress in the literal sense at the time she took the throne, but her arc in general is more of a frothing ball of insecurity, generalised ambition, and rage than any actual goal. Initially her aim was revenge and restoration of the Napan line. Obviously things got bigger than that eventually, then she's got tension with Kellanved right from the start because he's basically an upstart who's stepped over her, in her eyes. When she does take the throne for real it's in part because she thinks they need a permanent stable leader and she should be it coz she's regent anyway, rather than because she ever set out to take that role. And she got so paranoid and (possibly) guilty over actually having done it that her reign was spent veering between trying to recover from the loss of the Old Guard and being unable to replace them because she killed or ran off anyone who might become a threat. Rather than ruling.

Contrast to Mallick, who basically just doesn't give shit- he's incredibly self-secure (and smug) and that gives him the emotional distance to not get tied in knots.

Agreed.
Laseen never set out to become Empress. She was angry about her family being usurped in Nap but it never states that she herself expected to rule. Her Napan resistance days did not go well, hence her and others fleeing to Malaz where Kel recruited them. Once she becomes part of the Malaz Empire, she gets resources, people, money, none of which she had before, and it seems she is very good at what she does because the result is the expansion of the Empire and her creation of the Claw, loyal to her (at the time).
Ultimately she decides that the Malazan Empire is at risk because of Kel and Dancer's absenteeism, so she consolidates her power (by wiping out various threats like the Old Guard and the Shadow Cult) and seizes the throne on the basis that no one else can be trusted to do it.

She doesn't seem to have known that Kellanved was counting on her doing exactly that, tho reading in a bit post PoA, he likely also didn't expect her to kill or drive away her most trustworthy allies or his own followers.

It's that same streak of pragmatism, self-reliance and distrust that makes her a bad Empress and gives Rel the opportunity to subvert the Claw and then the Empire.


Rel doesn't try to save the Empire from Laseen. He just waits and watches the consequences of her actions make her vulnerable. She 'loses' Genabackis. She loses her adjunct. She expends massive resources against the Seer and loses The Host in the process. She fails to stop the Whirlwind early.She loses 7C. She sends Topper away. She loses her other adjunct  and two more armies. Fail after fail after fail and then to rein in the Old Guard and stop the CGuard she enters the field herself with only Possum as backup. She's vulnerable. Bang, his agent was in place the whole time waiting to take her out. Then he hustles to where the council meets and gets himself emperor'd. Lets 7C go, lets Genabackis go, consolidates the remainder of the Empire and starts setting up legions of super-marines to resume expansion.


Read loosely, most of that para is more or less what he did in the Jhistal Cult, ending w a hustle to get himself a new job w the Malazans. It works. I actually think as a story it works very well.

[tiam]

Some interesting points about Laseen.

Another point I'm not sure if it was mentioned but the Jhistal cult is meant to have a relationship with nameless ones. Was it ever mentioned qt any point?

Kell was meant to be appalled by the Jhistal cult and also pushing the Nameless Ones out of the Empire.

[Abyss]

tiam, on 04 May 2023 - 08:15 PM, said:

Some interesting points about Laseen.

Another point I'm not sure if it was mentioned but the Jhistal cult is meant to have a relationship with nameless ones. Was it ever mentioned qt any point?

Kell was meant to be appalled by the Jhistal cult and also pushing the Nameless Ones out of the Empire.

I don't recall a ref to the NOs, but if the link was real they were probably the ones who originally locked up Mael.
The blood sacrifice thing that Gianna escaped would be what Kel would have reacted to.

[tiam]

Abyss, on 05 May 2023 - 02:33 PM, said:

tiam, on 04 May 2023 - 08:15 PM, said:

Some interesting points about Laseen.

Another point I'm not sure if it was mentioned but the Jhistal cult is meant to have a relationship with nameless ones. Was it ever mentioned qt any point?

Kell was meant to be appalled by the Jhistal cult and also pushing the Nameless Ones out of the Empire.

I don't recall a ref to the NOs, but if the link was real they were probably the ones who originally locked up Mael.
The blood sacrifice thing that Gianna escaped would be what Kel would have reacted to.

Potentially and it ties in with the NO taking pieces off the board.

With one eye on shadow he may also have objected to it gor them imprisoning gods. Though ironically shadow does this better than most and is essentially an Azath Warren with an Azath at the centre.

[RealGatekeeper1]

I wonder if Turnagin is named after the Alaskan waterway Turnagain Arm, similar to ICE naming Kiska, well, Kiska. Being that Alaska is his adopted State and whatnot.