[QuickTidal]

Maark Abbott, on 19 January 2023 - 07:55 AM, said:

I expect the damage is already done and their reputation will never recover from this.

This is very much the case.

Everyone is like "Why should anyone trust that you won't do anything like this again?" coupled with the fact that a bunch of 3PP's are now just developing their own systems for people to jump to.

[worry]

Nobody should trust that they won't try it again. They will at the earliest opportunity (mis-perceived as it may be). Greed is not a belly that ever gets full.

[QuickTidal]

worry, on 19 January 2023 - 01:32 PM, said:

Nobody should trust that they won't try it again. They will at the earliest opportunity (mis-perceived as it may be). Greed is not a belly that ever gets full.

Indeed, hell I'm not even convinced they aren't STILL going to do it THIS time once they feel the smoke has settled.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 19 January 2023 - 01:15 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 19 January 2023 - 07:55 AM, said:

I expect the damage is already done and their reputation will never recover from this.

This is very much the case.

Everyone is like "Why should anyone trust that you won't do anything like this again?" coupled with the fact that a bunch of 3PP's are now just developing their own systems for people to jump to.

There seem to be a LOT of people swearing they are mere days from bringing out the next glorious thing.
There's obviously a market for new systems and the smart ones - who actually follow through, and i suspect that # is way smaller than the bold claims being tossed around - will make their bold new innovative system easy as hell to start because those are the ones likely to snatch a chunk of market not otherwise going to D20-based or Pathfinder. The market will settle eventualy and I am curious to see what form it takes and where it leaves D&D.

I don't believe for a second that D&D will vanish tho. The game has survive 50 years and multiple iterations, some much hated.

QuickTidal, on 19 January 2023 - 01:51 PM, said:

worry, on 19 January 2023 - 01:32 PM, said:

Nobody should trust that they won't try it again. They will at the earliest opportunity (mis-perceived as it may be). Greed is not a belly that ever gets full.

Indeed, hell I'm not even convinced they aren't STILL going to do it THIS time once they feel the smoke has settled.

They are totally going to do something, even if it's just quiet tweaks to the original OGL to let them go after the (mythical/hypothetical) $750k+ earners.

[Maark Abbott]

So there's been a lot of analysis on the clarifications published. Major objections include the fact that 1.2 is 'irrevocable' but WOTC can retract it at any time (the document contradicts itself) and a lack of clarity means that the hateful content clause could be used spuriously by Hasbro to shut down stuff it dislikes but that isn't in violation.

No end in sight - thankfully the folk most vocal about this are kicking up a huge stink and I think we're likely to see Hasbro double down even further. If they don't then they'll end up shifting so few D&D related products that it won't be a viable venture for them any more.

[Abyss]

Ya think?
Despite social media outcry I still wonder whether there aren't enough DnD fans just go ahead and buy in to whatever they're selling regardless, see by semi example the Jk Rowlings Harry Potter merch situation. I ack Rowlings transphobia isnt at all WotCHasbro's profitmongering, but the net result
for people willing to spend money in product may be analogous... some sales lost, but not enough to make a difference.

[Maark Abbott]

Abyss, on 22 January 2023 - 10:04 PM, said:

Ya think?
Despite social media outcry I still wonder whether there aren't enough DnD fans just go ahead and buy in to whatever they're selling regardless, see by semi example the Jk Rowlings Harry Potter merch situation. I ack Rowlings transphobia isnt at all WotCHasbro's profitmongering, but the net result
for people willing to spend money in product may be analogous... some sales lost, but not enough to make a difference.

I dunno, they lost 40k Beyond subcriptions over the initial draft and backpedalled pretty hard in response to it. And those subscribers probably aren't going to come back - lots of folk looking at other games/rulesets, making their own, etc. That said, the leaks coming from inside the company are pretty bleak, so whether this will change anything remains to be seen.

[Macros]

I mean, it just a rule book isn't it?

isn't GURPs a free version of that? Wasnt Malazan originally written as like adventures on it?

[QuickTidal]

Macros, on 23 January 2023 - 08:14 PM, said:

I mean, it just a rule book isn't it?

isn't GURPs a free version of that? Wasnt Malazan originally written as like adventures on it?

It seems like D&D 5e was pretty ubiquitous in the TTRPG community as the "default" setting most people used, and arguments can be made about just how much of it Hasbro/WOTC could copyright legally (less than people think)...so yeah GURPS and a few others are totally useable...but the masses who have gotten into TTRPG's in the last couple of decades seemed to lean towards 5e....

So a shift will be required for the majority of the community away from 5e (and the forthcoming 6e; also called ONE D&D) for WOTC and Hasbro to feel the full brunt of their idiocy. Seeing the numbers shed from their online toolkit is a good sign in that direction.

[QuickTidal]

And for what it's worth, the Critical Role crew seem to side with creators as much as they can while still linked to 5e/WOTC in a new interview, which makes me happy. They are good people, making good content, and I understand the tough position they've be thrust into.

[Macros]

But like, it's just a rule book, buy it once and you have it?
Am I missing something?

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Macros, on 24 January 2023 - 06:04 AM, said:

But like, it's just a rule book, buy it once and you have it?
Am I missing something?

Not in the sense of physical books, no. And I suspect a lot of people who take issue with Hasbro's direction will just continue to use their physical books and theatre of the mind their games.

It's more for the people who only own digital copies of the books through D&D Beyond, or use that as their platform to play through. The game I left last year relied heavily on D&D Beyond, and the DM had all the books bought on there which meant we as players in the campaign had access to all that extra stuff through there. I think that all access setup is probably what's tempted them to move towards a subscription model - for that campaign, DM bought everything and then six players had access to all that content they hadn't bought themselves. Everybody paying a monthly subscription would get around that I guess.

Personally I much prefer pen and paper and theatre of the mind, but I get a lot of people have moved over to digital with Beyond, Roll20 and such.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 24 January 2023 - 08:12 AM

[Maark Abbott]

For a lot of folk, 5E -is- D&D - it's the edition where I think you can argue that the game really reached the mainstream and people became properly aware of it.

It sounds like WOTC are trying to aim D&D in the way of most video games now, with battle passes and paid cosmetics and stuff like that. Granted, it's all for the online services, but I have zero doubt that it'll come at the cost of ignoring those who actually play tabletop.

A lot of folk use D&DB for post-pandemic play or to circumvent restrictions (borders etc) or ever for streaming purposes - as with any popular subject there's an audience and money to be made playing the game online to them. Considering how much D&D is online now, the fact WOTC/Hasbro thought it would be a great idea to be able to claim ownership of anyone's content and have the right to it by default (in the same style as Facebook and photographs) was pretty mad.

Thankfully, the community most vocal about why this whole mess is awful have also proven to be quite knowledegable about other rulesets that can be played or migrated to - so there is a viable chance that even when 6e drops, far fewer people are going to want to buy anything to do with it. Hasbro has seen this and have backpedalled several times, but the damage is sorta done already now.

[worry]

[Maark Abbott]

Mordor was driven back. But with Sauron the exec in charge, for how long...?

[QuickTidal]

Maark Abbott, on 28 January 2023 - 08:57 AM, said:

Mordor was driven back. But with Sauron the exec in charge, for how long...?

Yeah, I don’t trust this company as far as I can throw it with these people in charge. Williams alone whole history is one of “how to monetize this”….fire her THEN maybe we talk

[Tsundoku]

Well, to be fair, she IS only doing what she was hired to do. Are there other, less distasteful ways to go about it?

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 28 January 2023 - 02:09 PM

[Abyss]

No one should be shocked if/when they bring on 1DnD with an absolute pile of restrictions on 3p use.

Smart would be to build on what little karma they gained w the 5e dump, but corporate money triumphs over smart most days.

[QuickTidal]

Tsundoku, on 28 January 2023 - 02:09 PM, said:

Well, to be fair, she IS only doing what she was hired to do. Are there other, less distasteful ways to go about it?

I don't find it distasteful at all to sunder the bigger evil players involved in late-stage-capitalism at this level.

You do evil shit that seeks to make people poorer in every instance by monetizing the shit out of the thing they do for fun and relaxation....you should be called out. I'd like the whole thing to tumble down if I'm honest....but I'll accept firing the people in charge.

In an ideal world, WOTC is not owned by Hasbro, and the people at the top of the WOTC totem pole aren't lifelong corporate rich capitalist ghouls...but we don't live in that world.

So I'll settle for rolling for initiative, and making enough noise that they lose their jobs. They took those jobs knowing what they were doing/trying to do.

[Macros]

not really sure where to ask, but you nerds seem to be talking DnD here.
so I've been signed up to do my first campaign (outside of BG or IWD) of actual DnD. Have the rule book in PDF on phone and on laptop, but would like the book in my hand as well. It's expensive, I remember getting the rule book free with BG. Now its £30 for a hardback, and all second hand ones are half that, but postage bring it back up to new value. Nothing on WoB, and amazon second (sorry guys) is the half price double postage deal.

Any other sources for UK to get second hand or cheap copies of the book? can only find hardback online as well