[Father Light]

PErhaps the elders aren't so much draconian as so powerful that they can assume the form at will? after all the galayn lord in gotm has a draconic form, is he draconian? i doubt it.

[Father Light]

MOI draconus described by Kallor as Tiam's kin. also sis of cold nights , krul and draconus are described as the last 3 elder gods, hence precluding hood from being elder? that last bit was for another thread!

[majander]

That can't be accruate, though. We know of at least 2 other Elder Gods who were definitely active after this, namely Mael and the Errant. Locked on Lether for the time being, but active nontheless.

[Dolorous Menhir]

The Errant is not an EG, and Mael confines himself to Lether by choice, he is not trapped there (though the Errant is).

[majander]

Dolorous Menhir said:

and Mael confines himself to Lether by choice, he is not trapped there .

Do we know that for sure? It seems that by influencing Gothos' ritual, perhaps MAel was deliberately trapping himself away from the daily trials of being an Elder god. It will be interesting to see how active a part MAel starts to play away from Lether, if any at all. (Mainly interested to see if he catches up with Mallick Rel)

[Dolorous Menhir]

I don't think the CG's island is on Lether, and Sister Spite felt his anger in BH (when the Eres'al manipulated their boat against his will).

There's no reason to think he is trapped on Lether. He's there by choice.

[majander]

True, but by that point, the Jaghut ritual has been thawed completely. Lether is no longer isolated, so it still doesn't tell us if he was trapped or not. Do we know if he was at any of the chainings?

EDIT Actually the more I think about this, the more I think he WAS trapped there. We know the holds did not evolve to houses on the Lether continent. There has also been a lot of speculation that there does not appear to be a "younger" equivalent to the warren of Ruse. Perhaps the two facts imply that the realm of the sea was stuck in the past? There would continue to be worship of a sort - sailors being superstitious would continue to make offerings to the sea, so he wouldn't be forgotten the way that the Errant was. It would also fit with the personality of Mael that we are shown through MT - the god who has forgotten his responibilities and immersed himself in the mortal world.

[Dolorous Menhir]

You argue this well, but Mael is an Elder God. I just don't think it's within the power of a Jaghut, even Gothos, to imprison him against his will. Mael stayed there because he chose to.

[tiam]

although i disagree that Mael was kept against his will there is precedent. Although granted the entire race of KCCm kept the EG away but could a simple barrier of ice? especially seen as he left at the end.

Also i believe he went and stayed in Lether for a number of reasons.

1. Tehol gave him enjoyment of life again.
2. Lether was a backwater place completely isola5ted.
3. It was his kinda stronhold. In MT we see his guardianb and other stuff. Well not his strong hold but perhaps he went to Lether to fulfill his oath of keeping all the other forgotten Hold Gods alive.
4. He didnt like being worshipped and Letheriis worship the errant

[Delat]

hmm having read through the entire thread I have a few thoughts.
What is Spite's aspect I wonder? In specific regard to her role in the Nameless One's ritual? I don't mean to be a spolier, but what was her warren's role in the ritual, and was that an aspect of Starvald itself or her personally. ????? the answer to that may sort out the question of the Orataral dragon.

Also what about Dejim? He is a d'ivers, but does he also have a second form?? From every indication he doesn't, so it may mean that d'ivers need not be soletaken, but a soul taken like Mogara can be a d'ivers. Also what about the d'ivers Mael fought in Lether? from every desciptoin he seemed to be a Trohlbaral or something simular. I wonder if Dejim manages to escape after Paran's gambit in the temple in BH. Either way Dejim's origin seems to give some insight into the nature of the soletaken and d'ivers ritual If indeed they have any relation).

Soletaken veering seems to me to be based around Affinity. The Draconian soletakens gain close affinity by virtue of having draconean blood, as does Paran with hounds blood, the j'heck and other soletaken from their affinity to certain animals or animal spirits. The ritual is one of mingling of blood or essence. In addition if you accept that the warrens are the blood of K'rul and K'rul is draconic (elient= pure dragon, no second form draconic meaning one with some eliant blood like Jhag meaning Mixed Jhagut heritage) than mages through their effinity with the warrens and magic may gain the ability to veer their form with their affinity to magic it literally soaks into them. I wonder though if pure dragons can veer into humanoid shapes, or if they are even naturally 'physical'?
Do Ascendants have a set physical form? Burn is literallt the earth itself.
Look at Shadowthrone, he seems to be more wraith than human, while Cotillion seems human enough


As for Mael and Lether. Mael like burn seems to be a manifestation of a natural force inherent to the physical reality of the realm an elemental or indigenous to the realm unlike many of the other races and ascendants who are from other realms or even warrens. To my mind than Mael is the ocean and his essence in Lether is an avatar. He may not be minding the store and on vacation in Lether, but I think an elemenatla could be in many places at once, unlike the ascendants who ascended from mortality to divinity. Mael and other elders are manifestations of certain universal abstracts. The Unaligned in the deck seem to represent these universals. As to the question of magic, is there an inhernet differnce between the magic weilded by mages and priests? Many priests are mages in their own right, but many aren't, and still have some affinity and use of their Patron's warren. I mean the warrens are aspected by eliant, but what of the realm of fener, prusamably he came from somewhere, and would not his realm be a warren, albeit one aspected by him rather than a dragon

[Delat]

what of Shadow? It seems the powers come from both Its ascendants and mere affinity with Shadow. Apsalar gains her poweres from Cottilion (seemingly, mind you he may have choose her because of her natural affinity to shadow?) whereas Bottle seemingly has no love for the Rope and the Wraith. I had always assumed that most of the ascendant deities were much like Dancer and Kellanved, having found the throne of a particular warren they gained control of it and as such had access to its particular abilities and could then grant them to their worshippers. Much of BoneHunters seems to contridict this, but it does discuss the muliplicity of pathways to acendancy.


In addition I don't think it was the mix of the twelve warrens that created otataral, the other elven warrens healed and otherwise reengerized Dejim. Look at the trapped sky keep, how exactly did they break the ritual of Ice? Or had it merely eroded naturally over time? There was a great deal of Eliant blood kicking around and why would the Nahuk either want or need Sorrits blood in the first place. On the subject of the short tails their warren seems to be realted to time, meaning the short tails in the imperial warren could be from the past, having fled the fall of the K'Chain into the future. It seems abvious that Short tails are active in the West of Seven Cities. I wonder if the pit Karsa found actually held a K'Chain or was it another of the ritual death chambers seen in the the trapped sky keep. COnsidering the Forkul ove of underground chambers I am inclined to wonder if it belonged to them. Perhaps not?

[ASAGO]

I would think to have a soletaken form it would not matter what your family tree is or if you have draconian blood just like L'oric, but we are only on book six, I am under the impression that mabey there is a ritual to do with Starvald Demelain and quite possibly assendcey to be able to "be a sloetaken" call upon those powers

[ASAGO]

To DELATS quote about the skykeeps surroundings melting I was thinking it could be part of the deal Mael made with the Jahgut the freeze the betrayel of the edur and the andii, and the skykeep being frozen along with the betrayel was part of a bigger scheam,

[Dolorous Menhir]

If you are talking about the Sky Keep in BH where Icarium found Sorrit, then that was Ganath and not Gothos. It was on Seven Cities, not Lether.

Moon Spawn was referred to at one point as being retrieved by Rake from a glacier or other ice structure, no? Even so, it wasn't necessarily Gothos who did it. We know that the Jaghut fought the KCCM just as the Tiste races did, and Gothos isn't the only Jaghut who can throw around a glacier.

[Urko Crust]

alright reading MT again and in the prologue, i think it as gothos who says mother darks first children were born withaout need of a sire and despite what anomander may claim they were not tiste andii.
So that implies that Rake and co did have a father, no?
that is not on this family tree

[Abyss]

I take that to mean her second children, or whatever get the Andii were, ALSO didn't need a sire.

- Abyss, pruning the tree.

[Dolorous Menhir]

If the Tiste Andii had a sire, it wasn't Father Light.

It was Mother Dark hooking up with Father Light to produce the Liosan & Edur that provoked the schism that pushed out Rake, after all. Which implies that FL was not father to the Andii race.