[Grief]

Actually there is an argument to be made that "dragons" is an element. Why not? Or at least, whatever force the dragons embody(perhaps chaos) certainly.

@D'rek:

I'm not sure I agree with the draconic coming from mother more than father, don't think there is really much evidence either way.

As for Andarist, I do believe that Andarist does mention that he has draconic blood, in the conversation where he mentions that if he accepted it like Rake does he would look considerably younger. Could be wrong.

L'oric could also be draconic, I don't think it is mentioned either way, but as you sa, there are times he would've been wise to use and didn't. Not very conclusive though.

[D'rek]

Grief, on Apr 30 2009, 12:37 PM, said:

I'm not sure I agree with the draconic coming from mother more than father, don't think there is really much evidence either way.

No definitive evidence, never said by any character, just an observation. Every draconic soletaken in the series so far has a mother who is also an eleint soletaken, or else got it directly from Tiam. On the other hand, there are characters, like L'oric, who have eleint soletaken fathers, but not mothers (or the mother is unknown). Hence, by observation, this may be a valid case. Not saying it is, but so far that's what it points to, though there are very few examples to on...

Grief, on Apr 30 2009, 12:37 PM, said:

As for Andarist, I do believe that Andarist does mention that he has draconic blood, in the conversation where he mentions that if he accepted it like Rake does he would look considerably younger. Could be wrong.

He says that if Rake somehow renounced his draconic blood, that Rake would look old like Andarist (Andarist, having no draconic blood looks like a million-year-old Andii should, if Rake denied his draconic blood's effects {somehow}, then Rake would also look like a million-year-old Andii, like Andarist) somehow this became a widely accepted theory of Andarist being soletaken, but that's just silly.

[Urizen]

D'rek, on Apr 30 2009, 04:19 PM, said:

Oh just ignore Sinis, he's a cynic (almost rhymed!). L'oric probably isn't draconic because A) there've been plenty of times when he should've used it and hasn't, and B ) as far as inhereting it from your parents, it tends to come from the mother and not the father (though most cases we know of it is both). As for suppressing it, there's no evidence that Andarist is actually draconic, considering how he talks about keeping the Andii blood and all, more likely he was never a draconic soletaken like his brother. This draconic tree is largely weird and a bit inconsistant/debatable, not to mention it's missing plenty of folk, so in general I wouldn't worry about what's on it and what ain't.

True, Andarist doesn't have draconic blood. However

Spoiler

Nimander does and Andarist does a good job of making Nimander supress it.

, conciveably L'oric might not be aware of how/what he should do to "activate" his draconic blood for some reason.

[D'rek]

Urizen, on Apr 30 2009, 04:53 PM, said:

D'rek, on Apr 30 2009, 04:19 PM, said:

Oh just ignore Sinis, he's a cynic (almost rhymed!). L'oric probably isn't draconic because A) there've been plenty of times when he should've used it and hasn't, and B ) as far as inhereting it from your parents, it tends to come from the mother and not the father (though most cases we know of it is both). As for suppressing it, there's no evidence that Andarist is actually draconic, considering how he talks about keeping the Andii blood and all, more likely he was never a draconic soletaken like his brother. This draconic tree is largely weird and a bit inconsistant/debatable, not to mention it's missing plenty of folk, so in general I wouldn't worry about what's on it and what ain't.

True, Andarist doesn't have draconic blood. However

Spoiler

Nimander does and Andarist does a good job of making Nimander supress it.

, conciveably L'oric might not be aware of how/what he should do to "activate" his draconic blood for some reason.

He might, or he might not, or he might have the blood but not the Soletaken ability, just the cool detachment that comes from it. No proof of any of those yet, im afraid...

[geNESis]

The exact quote from HoC is "It had been a guess, but Darist's expression was all the affirmation needed. Anomander Rake's younger brother. In his veins nothing of the Son of Darkness's Draconian blood.

And as to L'oric, like most people i assumme he would've used his soletaken form by now. Specifically when he went searching for his father and Osseric had to snatch him to safety in his soletaken form. But like everything else in this series if it isn't exactlly stated then it's still possible.

[Hood's Legacy]

D, on 30 April 2009 - 04:19 PM, said:

QUOTE (Fox @ Apr 29 2009, 11:56 PM) QUOTE (Sinisdar Toste @ Apr 29 2009, 11:33 PM) QUOTE (Fox @ Apr 29 2009, 10:25 PM) Tiam is the Elder Goddess of Dragons.


Also- Why isn't Loric on this family tree? Isn't he Osserc's son?

been mentioned as the mother of all dragons i think, but like i said above, thats no reason to believe she is the elder goddess of dragons. dragons isn't an aspect, or even an element. its a race. killimandaros isn't the elder goddess of the forkrul assail is she? they're just her children. i would think that killy is the elder goddess of balance or failing that, ass whuppin



Okay, a simple " thats not actually true" would have sufficed, but thanks for hammering it home with the condescending rhetorical questions, thats always nice. Great for making friends, sort of like sarcasm. You know, I was going to compliment you for having the coolest avatar I've ever seen, but now I...well I guess I did anyway.

Also, semantically your last example is wrong. Kilimandaros, is an Elder Goddess, and a goddess of the FA. Therefore it would not be incorrect to refer to her as the elder goddess of the FA.. But thats beside the point.

Regarding Loric:
Do we know for sure that he was never Draconean? Its possible he suppressed his draconean side like Andarist did? But even if he never did have a draconean side, shouldn't he still be on the tree since he's Osserc's son? As far as we know Phaed was not strongly draconean either.


Oh just ignore Sinis, he's a cynic (almost rhymed!). L'oric probably isn't draconic because A) there've been plenty of times when he should've used it and hasn't, and B ) as far as inhereting it from your parents, it tends to come from the mother and not the father (though most cases we know of it is both). As for suppressing it, there's no evidence that Andarist is actually draconic, considering how he talks about keeping the Andii blood and all, more likely he was never a draconic soletaken like his brother. This draconic tree is largely weird and a bit inconsistant/debatable, not to mention it's missing plenty of folk, so in general I wouldn't worry about what's on it and what ain't.

Andarist probaly isn't soletaken because he didn't drink Tiam's blood.(Whatever that means). About Tiam dying and resurrecting again, it always happens when Tiam makes happy time (Borat, anyone ) with someone.. She then births, dies and is resurrected again.
Yes, she is a dragon, one of the sisters mentions about this in Book 5., while speaking to Osserc, when he had his ass handed to him by Dragnipurake. (Udinaas/Wither's dream)
Perhaps Dragnipurake's soletaken form could not get it on with Tiam's soletaken form/or perhaps was spurned... Hence, he actually killed her without mating her.. Hmph... talk about rejection... (Just joking). That is why she cannot probably be resurrected. Could Tiam be associated with chaos...??(When the dragons actually embody their warrens) She is definitely a primordial force. Aspects (specifically associated ascendants) mate with Tiam to beget children (for what???) Why do all the ascendants mate with a dragon ??? ouch.... Hmm.. like it rough, do they?? It's kind of weird that the ascendants drink Tiam's blood to become Elient and also mate with her to spawn more of their kind/hybrid?? Pre-requisites for mating... probably.

Adding something else I noted (came out of nowhere) when the Meckros chieftain's speaking to Udinaas, he mentions something about all the soletaken elient getting together for a party and the path shaper's name was there in the list. Never thought that the forgotten one was an Elient..

This post has been edited by Hood's Legacy: 15 June 2010 - 12:37 PM

[Ben Delat]

about the OP:

why is tiam where she is in that tree? anomander and MD's other first children drank taims blood/killed her the same as osserc and the other elder soletakens did correct? Not sure why Eleint would be up top and she would be in the middle.

other details: If L'oric had draconeon blood why did he have/let his father carry him around in that dream world and save him from the Deragoth. He could have saved himself and flown next to his father rather than suffer the indiginity of being carried in his claw.

and yes I believe Andarist was the only brother not to drink, anomander and silchas did it in hopes of gaining power to end the internal civil wars going on with the Andii.

[TheSapper]

Hetan, on 14 November 2005 - 03:19 PM, said:

locked for viewing only.


DracTree.jpg

I haven't read all the comments, so I don't know if someone posted this, but does anyone remember that several of the lesser ascendant listed gained their draconian shapeshifting ability by killing Tiam and drinking his/her blood? Not trying to be a smartass or a troll, just mentioning....

[TheSapper]

TheSapper, on 07 January 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Hetan, on 14 November 2005 - 03:19 PM, said:

locked for viewing only.


DracTree.jpg

I haven't read all the comments, so I don't know if someone posted this, but does anyone remember that several of the lesser ascendant listed gained their draconian shapeshifting ability by killing Tiam and drinking his/her blood? Not trying to be a smartass or a troll, just mentioning....

[Ben Delat]

Yes, the method in which the character obatined their eleint blood is being ignored for the purpose of the OP. As we know Anomander and his borther at the least gained it by killing her, there are def those that got it from killing Tiam and I am sure others that killed other pure eleint.


It was mentioned a few times but I tend to skip the middle pages when I come on a long thread the first time.

[Luperci]

Hood, on 04 June 2010 - 11:47 AM, said:

D, on 30 April 2009 - 04:19 PM, said:

QUOTE (Fox @ Apr 29 2009, 11:56 PM) QUOTE (Sinisdar Toste @ Apr 29 2009, 11:33 PM) QUOTE (Fox @ Apr 29 2009, 10:25 PM) Tiam is the Elder Goddess of Dragons.


Also- Why isn't Loric on this family tree? Isn't he Osserc's son?

been mentioned as the mother of all dragons i think, but like i said above, thats no reason to believe she is the elder goddess of dragons. dragons isn't an aspect, or even an element. its a race. killimandaros isn't the elder goddess of the forkrul assail is she? they're just her children. i would think that killy is the elder goddess of balance or failing that, ass whuppin



Okay, a simple " thats not actually true" would have sufficed, but thanks for hammering it home with the condescending rhetorical questions, thats always nice. Great for making friends, sort of like sarcasm. You know, I was going to compliment you for having the coolest avatar I've ever seen, but now I...well I guess I did anyway.

Also, semantically your last example is wrong. Kilimandaros, is an Elder Goddess, and a goddess of the FA. Therefore it would not be incorrect to refer to her as the elder goddess of the FA.. But thats beside the point.

Regarding Loric:
Do we know for sure that he was never Draconean? Its possible he suppressed his draconean side like Andarist did? But even if he never did have a draconean side, shouldn't he still be on the tree since he's Osserc's son? As far as we know Phaed was not strongly draconean either.


Oh just ignore Sinis, he's a cynic (almost rhymed!). L'oric probably isn't draconic because A) there've been plenty of times when he should've used it and hasn't, and B ) as far as inhereting it from your parents, it tends to come from the mother and not the father (though most cases we know of it is both). As for suppressing it, there's no evidence that Andarist is actually draconic, considering how he talks about keeping the Andii blood and all, more likely he was never a draconic soletaken like his brother. This draconic tree is largely weird and a bit inconsistant/debatable, not to mention it's missing plenty of folk, so in general I wouldn't worry about what's on it and what ain't.

Andarist probaly isn't soletaken because he didn't drink Tiam's blood.(Whatever that means). About Tiam dying and resurrecting again, it always happens when Tiam makes happy time (Borat, anyone ) with someone.. She then births, dies and is resurrected again.
Yes, she is a dragon, one of the sisters mentions about this in Book 5., while speaking to Osserc, when he had his ass handed to him by Dragnipurake. (Udinaas/Wither's dream)
Perhaps Dragnipurake's soletaken form could not get it on with Tiam's soletaken form/or perhaps was spurned... Hence, he actually killed her without mating her.. Hmph... talk about rejection... (Just joking). That is why she cannot probably be resurrected. Could Tiam be associated with chaos...??(When the dragons actually embody their warrens) She is definitely a primordial force. Aspects (specifically associated ascendants) mate with Tiam to beget children (for what???) Why do all the ascendants mate with a dragon ??? ouch.... Hmm.. like it rough, do they?? It's kind of weird that the ascendants drink Tiam's blood to become Elient and also mate with her to spawn more of their kind/hybrid?? Pre-requisites for mating... probably.

Adding something else I noted (came out of nowhere) when the Meckros chieftain's speaking to Udinaas, he mentions something about all the soletaken elient getting together for a party and the path shaper's name was there in the list. Never thought that the forgotten one was an Elient..

Don't Pearl and Lostara Yil come upon Tiam when they are travelling through the Imperial warren and find the gate to the Thyr warren? Im currently on Reapers Gale and have been wondering about the significance of the Imperial warren and why the Malazans are able to use it.

[D'rek]

Ronin, on 22 November 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

Don't Pearl and Lostara Yil come upon Tiam when they are travelling through the Imperial warren and find the gate to the Thyr warren? Im currently on Reapers Gale and have been wondering about the significance of the Imperial warren and why the Malazans are able to use it.

Pearl and Lostara found a giant crucified dragon surrounded by a pocket warren, alive and seemingly Otataral-aspected. But they didn't identify it as either being or not being Tiam.

[Luperci]

D, on 22 November 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Ronin, on 22 November 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

Don't Pearl and Lostara Yil come upon Tiam when they are travelling through the Imperial warren and find the gate to the Thyr warren? Im currently on Reapers Gale and have been wondering about the significance of the Imperial warren and why the Malazans are able to use it.

Pearl and Lostara found a giant crucified dragon surrounded by a pocket warren, alive and seemingly Otataral-aspected. But they didn't identify it as either being or not being Tiam.

Didn't they mention how it was cursed to die and be reborn again every time, Ill try to look up the passage I think it was from House of Chains.

[worry]

Pearl and Lostara have absolutely zero expertise about the dragon they come upon, and are in fact taken aback by its very existence. I recall just as D'rek does that they don't conclude anything about it (such as it must be Tiam) and continue to refer to it simply as the Otataral Dragon. If they discuss Tiam there, though, it's more likely the Otataral Dragon simply caused them to confer about what legendary info they have on the Eleint, but it's not meant to suggest they're identifying this particular dragon.

[Luperci]

worry, on 23 November 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

Pearl and Lostara have absolutely zero expertise about the dragon they come upon, and are in fact taken aback by its very existence. I recall just as D'rek does that they don't conclude anything about it (such as it must be Tiam) and continue to refer to it simply as the Otataral Dragon. If they discuss Tiam there, though, it's more likely the Otataral Dragon simply caused them to confer about what legendary info they have on the Eleint, but it's not meant to suggest they're identifying this particular dragon.

OK thanks for clearing that up, I'll have to go back and re read that part to see how I got that confused. Do you guys remember what book the passage is from?

[Takko]

late reply - but I think it's Deadhouse Gates since I had the same question.