[Folken]

It was never published in the books. We just got a copy from him and put it up on the site.

[lokiman]

Aptorian;206188 said:

in Toll the Hounds since we're returning to Darujistan and will most likely meet Baruk there.

Where do we learn this?

[Aptorian]

SE has confirmed this in a interwiew, it can probably also be read on amazon.

TtH will revolve around Black Coral and Darujistan, basically taking us back to the story of MoI. SE himself remarks he enjoyed returning to some of his favorite characters.

[Tastyfish]

SiriusL;193630 said:

I often wonder if we take some of these ancient entities too literally. Were Mother Dark and Father Light truly sentient beings that actually procreated to form the Tiste?

Part of me thinks like Delat posted earlier--the Elder Gods are abstractions of elemental forces, and the beings we see are actually avatars. They obviously have sentience, but they didn't have a form until K'rul put order in the world.

Then another part of me wonders if the forms they took were reflections of what humans (or Imass, or someone) believed. Their physical manifestations are brought about through worship, which is why K'rul disappeared for millenia until someone spilled blood in his temple. Blood allows them to exist as personal beings because it represents a sharing of the life force of the worshippers (OK, so this is getting a little far out).

Reaper's gale spoiler, but hopefully not that major and out of context

Spoiler

But Mael remembers a time that sounds very similar to the origins of life - tiny creatures clustered around hot vents in turqoise waters or somesuch. Whether this is due to him being an Eldar god who was around then or the relationship between God and aspect is far more complicated than just a theme (that after enough worship the sea and Mael are the same thing, so that even though 'Mael' is relatively recent far as his memories are concerned he has been around as long as the sea has). I don't think any worshipper of any god anywhere would have the sort of knowledge about how life began that Mael seems to have.

[Lisheo]

It is entirely possible that life begins seperately in lots of different areas on Wu.... Perhaps Mael cultivated one type of life in his warren and released it onto Wu, there to interbreed with something that say, Killy created, forming something more complex.

[Maltay]

I thought Anomandaris Dragnipurkae was the oldest brother, Andarist the middle brother, and Silchas Ruin the youngest brother.

I thought Lady Envy and Sister Spite were twins. Though that may be an asumption on my part given their names and attitudes.

I thought Sheltatha Lore, Sukuhl Ankhadu, and Menandore were sisters. The children of Scabandari Bloodeye and an unknown mother. I do not know which was oldest, which was youngest, or whether they were triplets.

I thought Phaed was the daugher of Nimander Golit and Lady Envy, a method for Lady Envy to make Anomandaris Dragnipurake envious.

I thought Nimander Golit was the eldest son of Anomandaris Dragnipurake and an unknown mother.

I thought Osserc did not drink the blood of Tiam after Tiam was slain by Anomandaris Dragnipurake. I thought he later cleansed the blood of Tiam from the Tiste Liosan by killing all those Tiste Liosan who had drank the blood of Tiam.

I thought Osserc's mother was Mother Dark. I thought the Tiste Liosan were the first children of both Father Light and Mother Dark. Whereas the second children of Father Light and Mother Dark were the Tiste Edur.

I thought the implied Father of the Tiste Andii was Father Light. Something that most, if not all, Tiste Andii are ignorant of. This knowledge, presumably revealed when Mother Dark once again joined with Father Light to birth the Tiste Liosan and Tiste Edur, was seen as a betrayal of the Tiste Andii by many of the Tiste Andii and was one of the primary reasons Anomandaris Dragnipurake killed Tiam and drank Tiam's blood.

[D'rek]

Maltay, on Feb 18 2009, 05:53 PM, said:

1. I thought Anomandaris Dragnipurkae was the oldest brother, Andarist the middle brother, and Silchas Ruin the youngest brother.

2. I thought Lady Envy and Sister Spite were twins. Though that may be an asumption on my part given their names and attitudes.

3. I thought Sheltatha Lore, Sukuhl Ankhadu, and Menandore were sisters. The children of Scabandari Bloodeye and an unknown mother. I do not know which was oldest, which was youngest, or whether they were triplets.

4. I thought Phaed was the daugher of Nimander Golit and Lady Envy, a method for Lady Envy to make Anomandaris Dragnipurake envious.

5. I thought Nimander Golit was the eldest son of Anomandaris Dragnipurake and an unknown mother.

6. I thought Osserc did not drink the blood of Tiam after Tiam was slain by Anomandaris Dragnipurake. I thought he later cleansed the blood of Tiam from the Tiste Liosan by killing all those Tiste Liosan who had drank the blood of Tiam.

7. I thought Osserc's mother was Mother Dark. I thought the Tiste Liosan were the first children of both Father Light and Mother Dark. Whereas the second children of Father Light and Mother Dark were the Tiste Edur.

8. I thought the implied Father of the Tiste Andii was Father Light. Something that most, if not all, Tiste Andii are ignorant of. This knowledge, presumably revealed when Mother Dark once again joined with Father Light to birth the Tiste Liosan and Tiste Edur, was seen as a betrayal of the Tiste Andii by many of the Tiste Andii and was one of the primary reasons Anomandaris Dragnipurake killed Tiam and drank Tiam's blood.

That's a lot of 'I thought's. Wow. I numbered them for ansering purposes:

1. Something like that.

2. Unsure. It doesn't really matter, they were born approximately around the same time, by the same parents. Sisters or twins, they can still hate each other and more.

3. They're not. The Tiste Edur believe something along the lines that they are all daughters of Scabby, but in reality only Sheltatha Lore is a daughter of Scabby. Menandore and Sukul Ankhadu are daughters of Osserc. Though it's not as solidly stated, Menandore's mother is definitely Tiam, and the same is probably true for the other two, as well.

4. It's sort of ambiguously implied at first that Phaed is the daughter of Nimander in tBH, and then later that she is the sister of Nimander instead. Certainly Envy hooked up with Nimander at some point, but based on RG it appears that Phaed is actually the child of Envy and Rake, that the stuff in tBH is just misleading.

5. Eldest? Quite possibly, though I don't think they ever say it outright. Certainly seems that way.

6. I seem to recall something about that cleansing bit, as well. Though like most things it was ambiguously stated so we can't be too sure. However, Osserc is definitely a soletaken dragon, so he either killed Tiam as well or else got it a different way (she-boinging Tiam). Osserc, being a god of the TL probably doesn't lose much sleep over the hypocrisy.

7. No, no and no. If Osserc has a mother, it is never directly stated. He is the first child of Father Light, but no mention of his mother is ever made. The Tiste Liosan are generally considered the second of the Tiste races, Edur third (Andii first). By some accounts Mother Dark made the Andii, Father Light made the Liosan and together they made the Edur. By other accounts MD made the Andii, together they made the Liosan and the Edur resulted from the mess. By yet other accounts, MD and FL together created all 3 races, but the Andii didn't know of FL for a while and likewise the Liosan didn't know of MD for a while. I guess in case #3 the Edur could be a third try where they knew from the start both parents...

8. It's confusing. Just wait 'til Toll the Hounds. It gets even confusier.

[End of Disc One]

I just read in RG that Sukhul Ankhadu has Edur blood, which sort of conflicts with this tree. She does say shortly after that the Edur are more Sheltatha's children than hers, but still.

Sorry if this has already been brought up; I don't have time to read through this whole thread right now.

[D'rek]

End of Disc One, on Mar 7 2009, 10:36 AM, said:

I just read in RG that Sukhul Ankhadu has Edur blood, which sort of conflicts with this tree. She does say shortly after that the Edur are more Sheltatha's children than hers, but still.

Sorry if this has already been brought up; I don't have time to read through this whole thread right now.

Quote for context?

[End of Disc One]

Impressive Clergyman, on Mar 7 2009, 10:26 AM, said:

End of Disc One, on Mar 7 2009, 10:36 AM, said:

I just read in RG that Sukhul Ankhadu has Edur blood, which sort of conflicts with this tree. She does say shortly after that the Edur are more Sheltatha's children than hers, but still.

Sorry if this has already been brought up; I don't have time to read through this whole thread right now.

Quote for context?

US MMPB pg 176, Sukul Ankhadu POV:

Quote

And, despite the Edur blood coursing through her veins, she was not uncommonly tall, which well suited her apparent vulnerability, for it was clear these Edur occupiers in this city were far too dangerous to be hunted by the common Letherii rapist.

And for my other mention that doesn't tell much, US MMP pg 204, after Sukul and Hannan Mosag discussed freeing Sheltatha Lore:

Quote

She watched as the malformed warlock dragged himself away. After all, you are much more her child than you are mine, and I'd rather she was, for the moment, without allies. It was all Menandore's doing anyway.

This post has been edited by End of Disc One: 08 March 2009 - 12:17 AM

[Wampyry]

End of Disc One, on Mar 7 2009, 11:36 AM, said:

I just read in RG that Sukhul Ankhadu has Edur blood, which sort of conflicts with this tree. She does say shortly after that the Edur are more Sheltatha's children than hers, but still.

Well, Sukul is cousin to Sheltatha and sister to Mendadore so she proably has a tint of all Tisti blood

This post has been edited by Wampyry: 08 March 2009 - 04:50 PM

[Aptorian]

Udinass suspects that there was once many many "sisters" of the different aspects of light, dark, shadow. Question is if they took upon them these aspects or they were born to them.

[Kryphon]

Ok, this might be a stupid question... Tiam sounds vaguely familiar, but I can't remember which book she was in. And since I'm in America, I've only got the first 7 books. Toll the Hounds is released Aug 4th so if she appears after that I wont have it.

[Salt-Man Z]

IIRC, Tiam has yet to make an actual appearance in any of the books, she's just been heavily referenced. And TtH has been out stateside since last fall, in hardcover and trade paperback. It's the mass market paperback that sees publication this August.

[Kryphon]

I have a library or MM paperbacks.. Not gonna mess that up now. I was just looking for references to Tiam.. I can't remember anything specific.

[Fox]

Tiam is the Elder Goddess of Dragons.


Also- Why isn't Loric on this family tree? Isn't he Osserc's son?

[Sinisdar Toste]

Fox, on Apr 29 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

Tiam is the Elder Goddess of Dragons.


Also- Why isn't Loric on this family tree? Isn't he Osserc's son?

there is no evidence that tiam is elder goddess of dragons, i don't think she's even been mentioned as a goddess - just as tiam. not saying she's not a goddess, its quite likely that she is, but you cant just go throwing out statements like that as if they were beyond reproach.

also l'oric doesn't seem to be draconian, i mean, if he could just veer into a dragon and fly away, why did osserc have to rescue him from the deragoth in the memory warren in HoC?

about Tiam, seems her blood can turn you into a soletaken eleint, she's done the down and dirty with osserc at least, she's feathered (menandore in MT),

Spoiler

was killed by anomander rake and instead of resurrecting like she usually does, she stayed dead and has been dead since then

. been mentioned as the mother of all dragons i think, but like i said above, thats no reason to believe she is the elder goddess of dragons. dragons isn't an aspect, or even an element. its a race.

Spoiler

killimandaros isn't the elder goddess of the forkrul assail is she? they're just her children. i would think that killy is the elder goddess of balance or failing that, ass whuppin

This post has been edited by Grief: 30 April 2009 - 05:28 PM

[D'rek]

TtH spoiler in there Sinis

Spoiler

(the rake-tiam bit)

, this is the BH forum...

[Fox]

Sinisdar Toste, on Apr 29 2009, 11:33 PM, said:

Fox, on Apr 29 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

Tiam is the Elder Goddess of Dragons.


Also- Why isn't Loric on this family tree? Isn't he Osserc's son?

been mentioned as the mother of all dragons i think, but like i said above, thats no reason to believe she is the elder goddess of dragons. dragons isn't an aspect, or even an element. its a race.

Spoiler

killimandaros isn't the elder goddess of the forkrul assail is she? they're just her children. i would think that killy is the elder goddess of balance or failing that, ass whuppin

Okay, a simple " thats not actually true" would have sufficed, but thanks for hammering it home with the condescending rhetorical questions, thats always nice. Great for making friends, sort of like sarcasm. You know, I was going to compliment you for having the coolest avatar I've ever seen, but now I...well I guess I did anyway.

Also, semantically your last example is wrong.

Spoiler

Kilimandaros, is an Elder Goddess, and a goddess of the FA. Therefore it would not be incorrect to refer to her as the elder goddess of the FA.

. But thats beside the point.

Regarding Loric:
Do we know for sure that he was never Draconean? Its possible he suppressed his draconean side like Andarist did? But even if he never did have a draconean side, shouldn't he still be on the tree since he's Osserc's son? As far as we know Phaed was not strongly draconean either.

This post has been edited by Fox: 30 April 2009 - 05:07 AM

[D'rek]

Fox, on Apr 29 2009, 11:56 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on Apr 29 2009, 11:33 PM, said:

Fox, on Apr 29 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

Tiam is the Elder Goddess of Dragons.


Also- Why isn't Loric on this family tree? Isn't he Osserc's son?

been mentioned as the mother of all dragons i think, but like i said above, thats no reason to believe she is the elder goddess of dragons. dragons isn't an aspect, or even an element. its a race.

Spoiler

killimandaros isn't the elder goddess of the forkrul assail is she? they're just her children. i would think that killy is the elder goddess of balance or failing that, ass whuppin

Okay, a simple " thats not actually true" would have sufficed, but thanks for hammering it home with the condescending rhetorical questions, thats always nice. Great for making friends, sort of like sarcasm. You know, I was going to compliment you for having the coolest avatar I've ever seen, but now I...well I guess I did anyway.

Also, semantically your last example is wrong.

Spoiler

Kilimandaros, is an Elder Goddess, and a goddess of the FA. Therefore it would not be incorrect to refer to her as the elder goddess of the FA.

. But thats beside the point.

Regarding Loric:
Do we know for sure that he was never Draconean? Its possible he suppressed his draconean side like Andarist did? But even if he never did have a draconean side, shouldn't he still be on the tree since he's Osserc's son? As far as we know Phaed was not strongly draconean either.

Oh just ignore Sinis, he's a cynic (almost rhymed!). L'oric probably isn't draconic because A) there've been plenty of times when he should've used it and hasn't, and B ) as far as inhereting it from your parents, it tends to come from the mother and not the father (though most cases we know of it is both). As for suppressing it, there's no evidence that Andarist is actually draconic, considering how he talks about keeping the Andii blood and all, more likely he was never a draconic soletaken like his brother. This draconic tree is largely weird and a bit inconsistant/debatable, not to mention it's missing plenty of folk, so in general I wouldn't worry about what's on it and what ain't.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 30 April 2009 - 04:20 PM