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Draconian family tree
#2
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Posted 09 December 2005 - 08:06 AM
This tree relates to those who have draconian blood.
I seem to have read somewhere that there may be three versions of this tree!
It is is known that K'rul certainly is of mixed blood.
L'oric does not appear... the theory goes that therefore he does not have a soletaken eleint form.
I seem to have read somewhere that there may be three versions of this tree!
It is is known that K'rul certainly is of mixed blood.
L'oric does not appear... the theory goes that therefore he does not have a soletaken eleint form.
#4 Guest_Gode_*
Posted 09 December 2005 - 01:58 PM
I'd actually like to see a little discussion regarding the threshold of draconic blood. I mean, people like L'oric definitely HAVE draconic blood, but what percentage of your lineage does draconian need to be in order for you to qualify as a draconian?
How much blood do you need, in order to assume a dragon form? If it dies out after essentially only one generation, that certainly doesn't leave many dragons wandering around out there, does it?
How much blood do you need, in order to assume a dragon form? If it dies out after essentially only one generation, that certainly doesn't leave many dragons wandering around out there, does it?
#5
Morgoth 
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Posted 09 December 2005 - 02:05 PM
well, the union of dragons obviously result in the offspring being dragons. And I'd find it likely that offspring of which one of the parents is a pure blood dragon also becomes dragons, or draconean soletakens, depending on the race of the other parent.
It's when you have the union of two people that are draconean soletaken, that the the offspring seemingly do not automaticly have the ability to shapeshift.. So the way I see it, it is not draconean blood as such, but rather the ability to shapeshift that is not carried down through the generations.
It's when you have the union of two people that are draconean soletaken, that the the offspring seemingly do not automaticly have the ability to shapeshift.. So the way I see it, it is not draconean blood as such, but rather the ability to shapeshift that is not carried down through the generations.
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#6 Guest_Gode_*
Posted 09 December 2005 - 02:06 PM
Actually, another thing just struck me. This is a DRACONIAN family tree. So does that mean that K'rul, Mael, Coldnight, (and more importantly) Mother Dark and Father Light are all draconian? They have to be, considering that their children are all Draconian. But so far as I can recall, no mention is made in the books regarding any of the elder gods other than Osserc having Draconian forms. Does this mean that the Draconians came before the gods?
The histories in the book seemed to suggest that Mother Dark and Father Light served the purpose of our single Judeo-Christian God, in a sense. The creators. They created the Tiste peoples, and all that fun stuff. But, looking at this chart, it seems like we need to believe that the Draconians clearly existed as plain Draconians before they existed as gods. Which means that even the Elder Gods are Ascendants.
Which, of course, begs the question... Who created them, and/or where did they come from?
The histories in the book seemed to suggest that Mother Dark and Father Light served the purpose of our single Judeo-Christian God, in a sense. The creators. They created the Tiste peoples, and all that fun stuff. But, looking at this chart, it seems like we need to believe that the Draconians clearly existed as plain Draconians before they existed as gods. Which means that even the Elder Gods are Ascendants.
Which, of course, begs the question... Who created them, and/or where did they come from?
#7
Morgoth
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Posted 09 December 2005 - 02:08 PM
Who created the christian god? Some questions are not ment to be answerd, Gode.
And we know both Draconus and K'rull are draconean soletaken, and so it wouldn't be suprising if the rest were as well
And we know both Draconus and K'rull are draconean soletaken, and so it wouldn't be suprising if the rest were as well
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#8 Guest_Gode_*
Posted 09 December 2005 - 02:14 PM
It just seems odd to consider Mother Dark and Father Light as dragons, for some reason. Actually, what REALLY seems odd about all this is considering Mother Dark and Father Light as actual, corporeal beings.
#9
Morgoth
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Posted 09 December 2005 - 02:17 PM
I am not sure it is right to think of MD and FL as dragons, but that they got a place on the tree because everything there is a direct or indirect result of either or both of them.
And we know they must be to some extent corporeal, since it seems several of the Tiste have intimate knowledge of them as actuall characters, not just as a theological idea. Remember though, that for all we know, the Christian God could also be a corporeal being, many people believe so after all
And we know they must be to some extent corporeal, since it seems several of the Tiste have intimate knowledge of them as actuall characters, not just as a theological idea. Remember though, that for all we know, the Christian God could also be a corporeal being, many people believe so after all
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#10 Guest_Gode_*
Posted 09 December 2005 - 02:26 PM
Hmm, good point, Morgoth.
It just seems like they shouldn't be Draconian, that they should be something 'other'. Perhaps they're some strange race that no one's ever heard of, whose soletaken form is human (or some approximation thereof).
Though that doesn't bear out, because it seems that their only child was Scabandari, who was most definately Draconian. On further thought, I actually don't think we need to assume that Scabandari was given birth to in the 'birds-and-bees' method that's so common to us.
Considering that both deities seem capable of producing offspring asexually, I think it actually IS safe to assume that Scabandari is no exception to that rule. Rather, maybe he was just a joint effort between the two of them.
Thus leaving it up in the air... ARE Mother Dark and Father Light Draconian?
It just seems like they shouldn't be Draconian, that they should be something 'other'. Perhaps they're some strange race that no one's ever heard of, whose soletaken form is human (or some approximation thereof).
Though that doesn't bear out, because it seems that their only child was Scabandari, who was most definately Draconian. On further thought, I actually don't think we need to assume that Scabandari was given birth to in the 'birds-and-bees' method that's so common to us.
Considering that both deities seem capable of producing offspring asexually, I think it actually IS safe to assume that Scabandari is no exception to that rule. Rather, maybe he was just a joint effort between the two of them.
Thus leaving it up in the air... ARE Mother Dark and Father Light Draconian?
#11
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Posted 09 December 2005 - 04:02 PM
Hmm.. I don't think Mother Dark is a dragon, or that she exists in any form at all
... she is there as a point of reference for the old "from darkness came forth everything else", chaos, light etc.
I also have a problem with the term "draconian".
The only true draconian being that we have met is Silannah.
The rest are soletaken eleint.. with draconian blood in their veins, through the drinking of Tiam's blood, and those who are termed variously Elder gods..
K'rul and Mael etc. It would be good to know what the other half of those are, if they are not an elemental aspected force in their own right... which is something I'd like to find out.
... she is there as a point of reference for the old "from darkness came forth everything else", chaos, light etc.
I also have a problem with the term "draconian".
The only true draconian being that we have met is Silannah.
The rest are soletaken eleint.. with draconian blood in their veins, through the drinking of Tiam's blood, and those who are termed variously Elder gods..
K'rul and Mael etc. It would be good to know what the other half of those are, if they are not an elemental aspected force in their own right... which is something I'd like to find out.
#12 Guest_Gode_*
Posted 09 December 2005 - 04:22 PM
Yeah, I think that something else is at work here, and that the "Draconian Family Tree" is flawed.
Is it possible that Tiam is the only TRUE dragon, as perhaps some kind of deity of magic? It's kind of funny that some of the Elder Gods seem to have aspects, and others don't. MD/FL are obvious, and Mael is water. But others, as far as I can tell, seem unaspected. Eleint (another dragon-related god, considering that many call the soletaken dragons 'Eleint')? K'rul? Coldnight?
And actually, come to think of it, why should gods be able to change forms at all? In fact, that runs contrary to everything with seen regarding the 'new school' of gods. I don't think we've seen a single demonstration of one of the new-school gods changing his or her appearance. So why should the rules be different for the old-schoolers?
So perhaps the ability to change forms is related to something other than their inherent divinity.
Anyway, just more musing on my behalf.
Is it possible that Tiam is the only TRUE dragon, as perhaps some kind of deity of magic? It's kind of funny that some of the Elder Gods seem to have aspects, and others don't. MD/FL are obvious, and Mael is water. But others, as far as I can tell, seem unaspected. Eleint (another dragon-related god, considering that many call the soletaken dragons 'Eleint')? K'rul? Coldnight?
And actually, come to think of it, why should gods be able to change forms at all? In fact, that runs contrary to everything with seen regarding the 'new school' of gods. I don't think we've seen a single demonstration of one of the new-school gods changing his or her appearance. So why should the rules be different for the old-schoolers?
So perhaps the ability to change forms is related to something other than their inherent divinity.
Anyway, just more musing on my behalf.
#13
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Posted 10 December 2005 - 09:07 AM
Gode said:
Eleint (another dragon-related god, considering that many call the soletaken dragons 'Eleint')? K'rul? Coldnight?
Eleint is simply the word for dragon - in the tree it appears to be used collectively, therefore one can assume there are more than one dragon. We have a list pure-blooded eleint in MT of course.
There is an otataral dragon of course... thats aspected
K'rul's aspect appears to be Starvald Demelain and Kurald Galain, but there's bound to be a lot about him we don't know.
Sister of Coldnights or Nightchill - can't remember a reference to the power of her sorcery at all.. perhaps Silverfox may give some clues in the future.
Olar Ethil is aspected to Tellan
Of Kilmandaros we know nothing other than it's a she.. and she layed the smack down on Scabandari big time.. although there was a crazy theory kicking around that she might be the otataral dragon.
Quote
So perhaps the ability to change forms is related to something other than their inherent divinity.
It is nothing to do with inherent divinity.
With the eleint soletaken it's Tiams blood.
With the other soletaken, it was a ritual that went wrong.
With the guy in MoI, whose name escapes me but he turns into a sparrow, it was the clay bird that K'rul gave him which latered his blood.
With Paran - not that we have seen a true veering, but a partial one, it was the blood of a hound of shadow.
#14
Hume
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Posted 10 December 2005 - 09:25 AM
@ Hetan
But what about Korbal and Bauchilan ? and Quick ben as well, Assuming Ammanas's comment was not a Gotmism.
I think personally the whole ability to soletaken/divers is a little more complicated than what we know so far.
And I still think some people are putting too much weight to this family 'tree', there are two other versions of Baruks, and remember this is only what baruk knows.
Not a Steven Erikson family tree, I wont believe anything unless im looking at something from a SE Encyclopedia tree..
But it is fun theorise
But what about Korbal and Bauchilan ? and Quick ben as well, Assuming Ammanas's comment was not a Gotmism.
I think personally the whole ability to soletaken/divers is a little more complicated than what we know so far.
And I still think some people are putting too much weight to this family 'tree', there are two other versions of Baruks, and remember this is only what baruk knows.
Not a Steven Erikson family tree, I wont believe anything unless im looking at something from a SE Encyclopedia tree..
But it is fun theorise
#15
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Posted 10 December 2005 - 10:54 AM
What I said above still stands afaic.. Broach and Bauchelain - unknown, but then they aren't divine afaik.
Quick Ben.. he has a soletaken soul.. on of his twelve.
I would like to see the other tree's too.. and the 'official' version would be nice.
wonder if SE would send it to us for Christmas?
Quick Ben.. he has a soletaken soul.. on of his twelve.
I would like to see the other tree's too.. and the 'official' version would be nice.
wonder if SE would send it to us for Christmas?
#17
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Posted 10 December 2005 - 11:24 AM
afaic - as far as I'm concerned...
afaik - as far as I know..
mostly to do with divinity
afaik - as far as I know..
mostly to do with divinity
#18
Jorram
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Posted 10 December 2005 - 12:02 PM
There are many ways to achieve the form of a soletaken and they are probably open to everyone talented enough in sorcery. Thats why I think Hetan's classification is sort of incomplete (apart from QB and K&B, there are also the Bonecasters, for isntance ). Shouldnt it simply be up to magic skills, nothing special in obtaining the soletaken capacity.
Though i recall Silverfox being specifically created to be a soletaken...
). Shouldnt it simply be up to magic skills, nothing special in obtaining the soletaken capacity.Though i recall Silverfox being specifically created to be a soletaken...
#19
Hume
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Posted 10 December 2005 - 12:54 PM
I think thats true that anyone with a fairly decent amount of magical ability and probably more importantly knowledge can be a soletaken/divers.
Remember when Loric is talking to the blokes of the apocalypse in their meeting near the start of HoC and goes something along the lines of "Ware the soletaken among us, as the new occupants of the beast throne may seek your obediance" Thats not a direct quote but its something similar to that. It does suggest that soletakens can and do exist amongst current mages as well.
Remember when Loric is talking to the blokes of the apocalypse in their meeting near the start of HoC and goes something along the lines of "Ware the soletaken among us, as the new occupants of the beast throne may seek your obediance" Thats not a direct quote but its something similar to that. It does suggest that soletakens can and do exist amongst current mages as well.
#20
Arkmam
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Posted 10 December 2005 - 01:15 PM
Hetan said:
Sister of Coldnights or Nightchill - can't remember a reference to the power of her sorcery at all.. perhaps Silverfox may give some clues in the future.
I'm pretty sure that Tattersail tells us in the begining of GotM that Nightchill (at least when she masquerades as a human) uses High Darkness or Shadow (I don't remember which
).
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