[Roland]

Darkness. But this means nothing. She could wield 20 warrens as far as we know. And how could K'rul be aspected, when he holds within his body ALL warrens in existence?

[Dolmen 2.0]

HUME said:

I think thats true that anyone with a fairly decent amount of magical ability and probably more importantly knowledge can be a soletaken/divers.

Remember when Loric is talking to the blokes of the apocalypse in their meeting near the start of HoC and goes something along the lines of "Ware the soletaken among us, as the new occupants of the beast throne may seek your obediance" Thats not a direct quote but its something similar to that. It does suggest that soletakens can and do exist amongst current mages as well.

When L'oric said that he was referring to the fat woman(can't remember her name) who was a soletaken. I'm not sure she was both a mage and a soletaken but the fact that people like Tayschrenn aren't soletaken kinda proves that the two states, soletaken and mage, are independant of each other.

I remember Gryllen mentioning something about Kulps warren and having an affinity to magic but he also said he had no command of it. Perhaps the ability to veer is linked to a particular warren aswell?

[Roland]

Btw, Jorram said it good enough - there are different ways of achieving shapeshifting. Just like with Ascendancy. The part about magical knowledge and power is only one of those ways, not the only one. So I don't see why you're all arguing about that Of course there are Soletaken and D'ivers who can't use magic and vice versa. But I'm quite sure Gryllen was a sorcerer and was lying in DG, when he said he is not a practitioner.

[Dolmen 2.0]

I was thinking, ALL the soletaken could access the Elder warren of the Imass. Hows that possible? perhaps veering gives you access to any warren?

[Dolmen 2.0]

Soletakens. I see your point Gode, Olar ethil was the first veering Imass but the likes of Rake and Ruin could veer aswell. their ability to do that stems from drinking tiams blood, an act of drawing a portion of tiams power.

I guess you got to ask which is older the beast hold or the dragons themselves, personaly I think its dragons, who may be linked to Krul in their ability to travel kruls blood effortlessly. kinda like an extension of patient zero.
(Is this worthy of the crazy theory thread?)

[Dolmen 2.0]

I neva got that myself, how can the hold of beasts exclusive to the malaz world be older than the eleint who seem to occur in multiple other worlds and/or warrens?

[Illuyankas]

Going back to an earlier question, we know Rake has more than two kids, and I doubt they all are Draconean, but perhaps after he had these children with Envy, then, if they all had that choice to find Tiam and drink her blood, only Phaed and Nimander Golit chose to drink, becoming Elient. Baruk's list could only have those which chose to become Draconean. Maybe. I'm not sure, but this almost makes sense.

And I don't think L'oric is a dragon, as he could have easily evaded the Deragoth in Raraku's memories, and wouldn't need Osric to carry him around.

[Roland]

Btw, it's said early on in GotM that one can access any warren with enough knowledge, but this doesn't give him control over it. SOME Soletaken and D'ivers could part the fabric of reality, tearing wounds in the warrens to invade them, but not all of them. Many traveled Raraku on foot which suggests not every shapeshifter could access the warrens.

[fan_83]

remember back to the first empire...they chose the path of soletaken to ascendency..that implies that veering =/= magic... it need knowledge, power and perhaps ritual..thats it. no magic required.. if you could get someone to do the ritual for you....

also I would guess that the hold of dragons is older than the hold of the beast.. but the malazan incarceration of the hold of dragons is younget than the hold of the beast as age can only be counted with a point of reference...

[Sty]

But if K'rul's blood is what makes the warrens, then, would that mean that he is an embodiment of chaos? Since chaos is what supposedly surrounds all of the warrens, and being the pathways between them. This is touched upon, at least the matter of chaos in contrast to the warrens, in Gardens of the Moon with Hairlock, as well as Memories of Ice with Toc the Younger and the Beast Hold.

The whole Dragon Hold vs Beast Hold debate deserves some new kindling to its ashes. Togg and Fanderay are mentioned to be creatures that come from a warren far older than that of the Elder Gods (Memories of Ice), implying that chaos, coming before order, manifested in a hold, the Beast Hold (which sounds more chaotic than the Dragon Hold) before order.
There are bits and pieces of information dropped in hints when Draconus speaks of Dragnipuhr as well as in the prologue of Memories of Ice and Hairlock's adventures in chaos in GotM that darkness was a manifestation of order forced upon the chaos that was everywhere.

Anyway, first reply in a long time, hope it'll bring some discussion again

Edit: Oh, and with the soletaken magery thing, Gryllen to be more precise, the fact that he kept Messremb away during the fight in Deadhouse Gates with some kind of magical barrier, and the fact that he had several undead slaves should be a small pointer towards him being a mage.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Sty said:

Edit: Oh, and with the soletaken magery thing, Gryllen to be more precise, the fact that he kept Messremb away during the fight in Deadhouse Gates with some kind of magical barrier, and the fact that he had several undead slaves should be a small pointer towards him being a mage.

I thought the same thing. The way I see it depending on your veering ability you can develop a form of magery from it. I think soletaken can tap inderectly to the beast warren when veering and the knowledgeable ones may be able to manipulate it into mage power.

Btw if Tiam is dead does that mean no more draconian soletaken? afterall a dragon only has so much blood, surely its run out?

[Hume]

If tiam dies there cant be any more draconian soletakens..

The ones that are already Draconian soletaken would still stay draconian me thinks.

[Dolmen 2.0]

yeah but is that it? no more new ones?

I just think it sucks that there aint no otha way 2 bcme draconian soletaken