[Imperial Historian]

Morgoth, on 17 April 2021 - 10:33 AM, said:

The two of you have options and abilities that makes it possible to grow in many ways. I do not have that, the Sardakk are and war alone. There is a limit on how flexible it is possible for me to be without sabotaging my ability to be a presence of any note in this game. This way you get a friendly and trade willing Sardakk who will spend his time being threatening and draining resources from other parts of the galaxy.

Hah please let me know what these options and possibilities are, I decided to play the muaat as a challenge but oh boy this is a tricky race!

[Morgoth]

Imperial Historian, on 17 April 2021 - 10:54 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 17 April 2021 - 10:33 AM, said:

The two of you have options and abilities that makes it possible to grow in many ways. I do not have that, the Sardakk are and war alone. There is a limit on how flexible it is possible for me to be without sabotaging my ability to be a presence of any note in this game. This way you get a friendly and trade willing Sardakk who will spend his time being threatening and draining resources from other parts of the galaxy.

Hah please let me know what these options and possibilities are, I decided to play the muaat as a challenge but oh boy this is a tricky race!

This was before PoK, but I had a great game with them churning out enormous amounts of TGs, and burning influence for ships. Now, with your commander and your mech, you get units and tgs and ships in one go. You can move about the map much like the Saar, growing your fleet as you go, and hunker down in Supernovas when feeling threatened.

I had a thought to contest both the legendary planets, but when you picked the Muaat I figured Hope's end would be too costly, it synergizes better than most with your other abilities.

[D'rek]

Tapper, on 17 April 2021 - 06:23 AM, said:

D, on 16 April 2021 - 07:42 PM, said:

Tapper, on 16 April 2021 - 07:20 PM, said:

You know better than most of us that being able to go beyond what the initial layout of a map suggests, is what leads to points scoring ,

Point 1. It is an equidistant which gives whomever holds it Dread 2/ Carrier 2/Grav drive reach to the other's HW. Neither of us likes to feel threatened, suggesting we come to a settlement.

Point 2: In addition, the tech planet and the shared planet type are good for objectives.

In other words: a deal over this system adds research/scoring opportunities for each of us while giving us both some sense of safety. Claiming the system as yours exclusively? It makes the emo goth elves feel sad and overlooked.

Yes yes you certainly *can* put extraordinary resources into going after it if you choose to, but there's just no reason for it when the whole point of the map theme is that we are all supposed to stop Twelve from taking and holding all the systems that He Can't Hold Them All and the Rigel system does everything the Lisis/Velnor system does (4 r/i per round, 1 tech specialty) and better (an extra explore so more likelihood of attachments).

Wasting your first research on gravity drive and sending your only dreadnought across the void just to have it bogged down defending a system from me would just result in Twelve have a field day in the places we are supposed to be contesting him for. There's no reason for you to do it.

Where's that *bang head against wall* smiley when you need it?
As far as I'm concerned, we're talking about establishing borders and conditions early game that both allow us progress in a friendly, neighbourly way and keep our hands free.

I am just looking to keep it all quiet on the Hacan front, which is the one place from where my HW can be directly reached from an equidistant with Carrier 2/ Dread 2. Seemed logical to me to start talking to that neighbour first.

Oh don't worry, after my carrier drops off infantry there it'll leave and I'll never put ships in that system again so you'll have reassurance that there's no chance of a surprise "crossing the Delaware" from there.

[D'rek]

So I see some people are taking Twelve's desire for a kamikaze destroyer in exchange for a Mahact agent play seriously (my "that can be arranged" was a "we can work out a price for this", not a let's do this, I didn't mean for it to encourage others to consider taking that offer at face value).

Just bear in mind that

You:

• gain a CT and can do 1 more tactical action
  
• but you had to spend a CT to do the kamikaze action in the first place
  
• double but you also lose the cost of the ship and production limit it took up when you built it

Twelve gets:

• +1 fleet supply for the rest of the game
  
• a unique new ability
  
• half of the progress towards unlocking his (phenomenal) commander
  
• the ability to ceasefire you with his mechs
  
• makes his faction promissory note more valuable so he can sell it more often (and he will sell it to people that want to block you)

We should all charge a hell of a lot more than one agent use for this. He has no shortage of resources and planets surrounding him so he should be willing to part with quite a bit of wealth or opportunity for a play that gives him so many good things.

As for his Agent, also keep in mind Twelve *wants* to use his Agent every round. It's great for him - if he uses it every round it's like starting with Hypermetabolism. Even if nobody offers him anything for it he will just pick someone to use it on every round, no way will he just abstain. There's no point in offering him the moon for something he's going to do anyway.

[Tattersail_]

Im having beers and food at mum and dad's so I'll comment tomorrow

[D'rek]

With that in mind, here's my offer for Round 1, Twelve:

I will pay you 1 TG if you use your agent on Mehar Xull or Tequ'ran/Torkan.

1 TG isn't a lot, but since I'm Hacan you're guaranteed to be able to get it immediately after Trade is played. You are unlikely to become neighbours with anyone else this round except for Tapper or Khell - and since we all have a vested interest in taking some of your mountain of systems I'll be offering to swap their commodities for them before they have to resort to trading with you. With no neighbours to trade with, that leaves you in an awkward position of having several things you'd like to spend 4 resources on (especially tech) but Ixth has only 3 resources - that 1 TG can make all the difference.

In future rounds these factors wouldn't apply, of course, but in round 1 I think it's a good deal given your situation. No need to decide now, think about it once the action phase gets underway.

[Tattersail_]

Imperial Historian, on 16 April 2021 - 09:34 PM, said:

Tatts we have a lot of equidistant systems, and have clearly been set up in a 3 way royal rumble, so an agreement on borders would be good. As the muaat I'm very CT hungry, so I would be interested in your racial and forming a trading relationship.

I have been considering things. I want Hope's End more for the 3 resources than for the mech because my agents let's me get mechs onto the board.

So if you concede Hope's End to being mine ill give you 1 use of both my racial and agent.

Going forward you can further buy my racial for 2TGs.

Would you prefer to enter an alliance or swap SftT?

If we do one I'll look to do the other with Morgoth so we have extra incentive to look elsewhere for our conflicts.

This also means I will not contest Quann with you or Morgoth.

Thoughts?

[Imperial Historian]

Tattersail_, on 18 April 2021 - 10:02 AM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 16 April 2021 - 09:34 PM, said:

Tatts we have a lot of equidistant systems, and have clearly been set up in a 3 way royal rumble, so an agreement on borders would be good. As the muaat I'm very CT hungry, so I would be interested in your racial and forming a trading relationship.

I have been considering things. I want Hope's End more for the 3 resources than for the mech because my agents let's me get mechs onto the board.

So if you concede Hope's End to being mine ill give you 1 use of both my racial and agent.

Going forward you can further buy my racial for 2TGs.

Would you prefer to enter an alliance or swap SftT?

If we do one I'll look to do the other with Morgoth so we have extra incentive to look elsewhere for our conflicts.

This also means I will not contest Quann with you or Morgoth.

Thoughts?

This sounds like a terrible deal for me:
1. Relooking at the map you aren't actually equidistant from quann due to hyperplane weirdness, so you aren't actually giving anything up
2. Looking at your agent you need to activate a system you are already in to use it and replace an infantry, not something I'm likely to be doing anytime soon
3. Hope's end gives you action cards as well as mechs which are almost as valuable
4. 2 TG for your racial sounds expensive and not something you'd be able to sell each turn (the roughly equivalent winnu PN twelve was typically sold for 1 TG)
5. Your agent and racial is at best worth 3.5 TG, costs you little and I'd get more than that level of return for holding hope's end for one turn
6. An alliance swap would be massively in your favour (my alliance ability is much more valuable than yours, especially to me), so if we did do a swap it would be sftt

I would propose the following deal:
1. You give me (or a player of my choosing your trade PN)
2. You give me your racial this turn and for the next 2 turns (or 1 turns and one use of your agent if I want to use it), and I have right of first refusal to buy it for 1 TG whilst you are having holding hope's end from then on.
3. In return I don't move towards hope's end with my warsun and let you take it
4. You gain 3 resources and at least an action card or a mech for the rest of the game, for minimal cost to yourself and a guaranteed trade good for your racial. I gain relatively cheap CTs, but lose out on the resources and mechs.

[Imperial Historian]

@d'rek I believe I'm the only player on the board with 4 commodities, so I think there is a deal to be done regarding your agent. If you use it on yourself you get at most 2TG and need a trading partner. I propose you use it on me each turn when I'm out of commodities and I'll give you those 4 commodities for 1 TG, a net +1 TG for the both of us. As part of this deal I'd like you to swap out my commodities when I need.

[Tattersail_]

No deal IH. If you want to go ahead and plan for War. I'm not letting you dictate how to get yourself into a really good position. Use your CT's wisely and let us see how your War Sun does.

[Tapper]

I guess this is the right time to state that my Racial PN will be for sale to the active player (attacker) for 1 TG, in any space combat not involving me and for immediate use only.

Spoiler

+ WAR FUNDING Ω | Play after you and your opponent roll dice during space combat. You may reroll all of your opponent's dice. You may reroll any number of your dice. Then, return this card to the Letnev player.

[Tattersail_]

Honestly IH I don't know how you even expected me to accept that deal.

[Imperial Historian]

Tattersail_, on 18 April 2021 - 12:55 PM, said:

Honestly IH I don't know how you even expected me to accept that deal.

It's a good deal! You get a legendary planet and mechs and no war with the muaat I get CTs. It doesn't even really cost you anything more than 2TG as your racial and agent are free.

What exactly is the objection?

[Imperial Historian]

Tapper, on 18 April 2021 - 12:50 PM, said:

I guess this is the right time to state that my Racial PN will be for sale to the active player (attacker) for 1 TG, in any space combat not involving me and for immediate use only.

Spoiler

+ WAR FUNDING Ω | Play after you and your opponent roll dice during space combat. You may reroll all of your opponent's dice. You may reroll any number of your dice. Then, return this card to the Letnev player.

What about use of your agent?

[Imperial Historian]

Tattersail_, on 18 April 2021 - 12:34 PM, said:

No deal IH. If you want to go ahead and plan for War. I'm not letting you dictate how to get yourself into a really good position. Use your CT's wisely and let us see how your War Sun does.

Looked at the map again and your previous posts. You've ceded khell your nice defensive gravity rift planet without him even asking for it, just like you gave him hope's end last game for nothing, but seem dead set on claiming hope's end off me by divine right. This confuses me as khell is a start relatively weak and snowball if left unchecked faction, whilst I'm the opposite.

Looking at your set up ceding those planets you'd have no route out other than via me.

I'm confused as to why you seem dead set on conflict over hope's end rather than coming up with a reasonable counter offer, when you are at a clear disadvantage in any early skirmishes, and you are leaving your neighbors with the strongest board positions unchecked.

Is your game plan war with me? Why?

As always tatts you remain the player I am least able to predict how you will react!

I thought we worked well together last game and it very nearly got both of us the win, and had hoped we could work well together again as I think our partnership would be pretty strong. Early war has never worked out well for anyone before, but hey let's see if one of us can be a trailblazer, unless you have a better offer.

[Tapper]

Imperial Historian, on 18 April 2021 - 01:38 PM, said:

Tapper, on 18 April 2021 - 12:50 PM, said:

I guess this is the right time to state that my Racial PN will be for sale to the active player (attacker) for 1 TG, in any space combat not involving me and for immediate use only.

Spoiler

+ WAR FUNDING Ω | Play after you and your opponent roll dice during space combat. You may reroll all of your opponent's dice. You may reroll any number of your dice. Then, return this card to the Letnev player.

What about use of your agent?

Available on turns where I do not expect to fight.

[Tattersail_]

Imperial Historian, on 18 April 2021 - 02:12 PM, said:

Tattersail_, on 18 April 2021 - 12:34 PM, said:

No deal IH. If you want to go ahead and plan for War. I'm not letting you dictate how to get yourself into a really good position. Use your CT's wisely and let us see how your War Sun does.

Looked at the map again and your previous posts. You've ceded khell your nice defensive gravity rift planet without him even asking for it, just like you gave him hope's end last game for nothing, but seem dead set on claiming hope's end off me by divine right. This confuses me as khell is a start relatively weak and snowball if left unchecked faction, whilst I'm the opposite.

Looking at your set up ceding those planets you'd have no route out other than via me.

I'm confused as to why you seem dead set on conflict over hope's end rather than coming up with a reasonable counter offer, when you are at a clear disadvantage in any early skirmishes, and you are leaving your neighbors with the strongest board positions unchecked.

Is your game plan war with me? Why?

As always tatts you remain the player I am least able to predict how you will react!

I thought we worked well together last game and it very nearly got both of us the win, and had hoped we could work well together again as I think our partnership would be pretty strong. Early war has never worked out well for anyone before, but hey let's see if one of us can be a trailblazer, unless you have a better offer.

It wasn't but then you thought to get your big brass balls out instead of actually negotiating.

I'm bigger earlier than you so give me more than what is fair.

Firstly you under value my agent and my pn and over value yours.

As you said you are a CT starved faction so CTs would be more valuable to you no?

Offering what is effectively Hyper metabolism for a round and a cheap CT in future rounds for something in which I can take regardless of your permission. I thought was a reasonable offer.

I threw in a use of my agent on top of that which is a way for you to get a mech on the board which will help you get more infantry.

So instead of war and hostile actions, you get benefits and I get none. I'd be taking Hope's End anyway and if you decided you want to come take it off me then that's the game we'll play.

The other way is we swap Alliance cards or SftT and forget there was any conflict to begin with. You have no contest to Mec Rex or any of the systems in and around you.

Moving your ships away from Rex and towards me would only show me your intentions.

[D'rek]

@Morgoth - so IH wants me to use my agent on him and he sends me 3 TG, so he gets a free TG out of it. Would you instead like to let me use my agent on you and you send me the 3 TG from it? You don't get anything out of it and I get the same result either way, but this way your neighbour doesn't get a free TG.

IH, if Morgoth says no then yes we can do the Agent -> 4C -> 3TG for me, 1 TG for you arrangement you propose. I don't agree to anything past that like your suggestion that I convert your commodities for free - you're already getting a free TG, no need to be greedy.

[Imperial Historian]

If you think you are bigger than me and can extort me early game tatts you are sadly mistaken. Try running out fleets through a battle calculator and looking at how many ways I have to forward build.

Hope's end is an equidistant system between us and is clearly one of the best systems on the board, that's a pretty clear benefit. I don't think my offer was at all unreasonable.

I'd be willing to do a sftt swap for good relationship, but we are talking about the equivalent of a 5 resource swing in your favour taking hope's end uncontested. You giving me your racial for a few turns and then selling me your racial at a discount seemed more than fair.

I don't value your agent at all, it just doesn't fit with the muaat playstyle so let's take that off the table, I do value your racial but 2TG to another player isn't a cheap price (how often do you see someone spending multiple TG on CT except when an objective comes up?).

Are we that far apart on our valuations of hope's end and your racial here? I thought we could have had a mutually beneficial partnership, but if it's not to be it's not to be.

[Tattersail_]

Sorry should have put that sentence in quote marks