[Cyphon]

I guess thats the power escalation for a proper apocalypse. If this had gone badly summer and winter could be around still but less humans so the mothers could carry on, and not be considered involved.

[champ]

D, on 09 October 2020 - 04:17 AM, said:

amphibian, on 08 October 2020 - 10:37 PM, said:

I am frustrated with the lack of interaction in this book with Mother Winter and Mother Summer. Not because I want the mysteries all revealed now, but because things like a Titan with the Eye of Balor would presumably need their input.

I know there's already many balls being juggled, yet it seems like two of the most powerful entities alive - one of whom is definitely a human (Mother Summer) - were ignored in a way that doesn't make sense given that Mab, Titania, Sarissa, Fix, Molly, and Dresden were all prepared to give their lives on the battlefield.

Hmm, my impression of the Mothers the two times we've seen them prior was that it's not in their nature to get directly involved in... well, anything, really.

There was the scene with McCoy using the black staff and darkness coalesced into the shape of a witch with a crooked nose, I thought that could be a representation of Mother Winter and the black staff could be a conduit for her power.


But aye, probably the most we'll see for now is indirect action if any.

This post has been edited by champ: 09 October 2020 - 02:52 PM

[D'rek]

champ, on 09 October 2020 - 02:50 PM, said:

D, on 09 October 2020 - 04:17 AM, said:

amphibian, on 08 October 2020 - 10:37 PM, said:

I am frustrated with the lack of interaction in this book with Mother Winter and Mother Summer. Not because I want the mysteries all revealed now, but because things like a Titan with the Eye of Balor would presumably need their input.

I know there's already many balls being juggled, yet it seems like two of the most powerful entities alive - one of whom is definitely a human (Mother Summer) - were ignored in a way that doesn't make sense given that Mab, Titania, Sarissa, Fix, Molly, and Dresden were all prepared to give their lives on the battlefield.

Hmm, my impression of the Mothers the two times we've seen them prior was that it's not in their nature to get directly involved in... well, anything, really.

There was the scene with McCoy using the black staff and darkness coalesced into the shape of a witch with a crooked nose, I thought that could be a representation of Mother Winter and the black staff could be a conduit for her power.


But aye, probably the most we'll see for now is indirect action if any.

Oh, the Blackstaff is definitely Mother Winter's "walking stick" that Mother Summer mentions in Cold Days her having "lost". But that sort of giving letting a mortal steal a powerful tool generations ago is probably the closest involvement they can get. The Mothers showing up in-person to do battle just doesn't seem like something they are even capable of doing in the role they have... or it's like Ferrovax and would have horrific consequences if they did.

[Slow Ben]

That was my first thought when the question was asked. That they probably can't.

Either they're limited/restrained in their involvement in the mortal world, or like D'rek said,and the cure could be worse than the disease.

[amphibian]

I'm not asking for battle scenes. What I'm asking for is some level of interaction or talk about what was happening to make the two courts both risk 75% of their ruling band (6 out of 8 highly important roles) in a battle where death of one or more was at least likely enough to plan for contingencies.

Mab and Titania run the courts, yet the Mothers have enormous power to the point where they both speak to Dresden to guide him to what they want to happen and explain some things to him. And those things happen because Dresden and Mab and so on make them happen.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 09 October 2020 - 03:16 PM

[Cause]

What happened between man and Titania.

You know what had happened/ what this means (something like that)
I except you to do your duty
When have I not

I must say when Mab told Harry he must summon her and he just knew who he as supposed to call I figured he was gonna call mother winter not Titania. Mother winter has answered his call before too.

What to make of the white court all running around in magical armor cloth? Where did they get this kind of power? Also white courts vampires are badass. Maybe stronger even stronger than red court or black court vampires in short bursts. The white court and Lara though seemed to just keep going all night without any of those pesky moral problems like feeding on mortals in front of Harry.

The faeries kidnapped children and made them child soldiers? Dresden just kinda ignored this one actually.

The fomor turned out to be a bit silly. Listen being high competent and sort of managing up was always a thing but king corb turned out to be an idiot. His army also not that scary. The titan using the eye to crush points of hardened resistance was supposed to be their shaved knuckle in the hole but truthfully the tian seldom intervened. The fomor army was ten thousand? The twenty thousand winter troops who are separate from guarding the gate should have been enough to wipe them out, throw in Odin and Marcone and Svartelves! Mabs trick about being in twenty places at once killing everything was more impressive army vs army than the eye. I mean this is only really a thought in hindsight but the fomor army was more a chance for everyone to show how cool they were by killing fomor in unique ways rather than showing off how scary the fomor were

Drakul was fun to meet and Harry is bound to go over after him and to destroy wild bill and toshiros bodies. How did he turn them though? I didn’t realize he could turn people against their will. Perhaps I misremember. Also did he turn them as them or are wizard corpses just cooler than regular corpses. The idea of 7 sorcerers raising a 1000 corpses was also more magical warfare than anything else we saw. We are always told time and rituals are the strongest weapons but we saw none.

I think we got confirmation that the black staff is the walking stick.

Why do you think mother summer is a human?

The guard doing a choreographed hero drop was funny! I’m glad they all made it and it’s amusing to see how badass thousands of little folk can be but also off they they essentially suffered no casualties.

The revelation about marcone requires a reread to consider if it all fits

I need to go back and double check but when confronted by butters who seems to speak as an angel, the titan seem to imply the Christian god was a fake? How dare you presume to command me or some such.....

Okay so I thought Mac was actually an outsider who quit the game, but he is a neutral falllen angel?

Nemesis has been riding Justine for a long long time. Also needs a reread to assess. But I think nemesis can be in a person and not active, so she was still Justine maybe.

Did Dresden kill listen or not? Def angered the titan. Seems everyone needs a starborn for the endgame and the white council not just Maggie played a role in making sure Dresden was one.

I fought the Odin son and lived! Loved that. So where is Odin? We know hades is real. Presumably Sonia Zeus and all the other pantheons etc where are they? Again we are confused as to the full extent of Odin power but yes the fact that he is not feared, worshipped, sacrificed to seems to limit his power.

Not sure how I feel about the late game introduction of capital L librarians. With all the secretive societies the white council works with I find it odd they wouldn’t have come up before.

Titanbronze, one eye should get himself some. I’m surprised he doesn’t have some actually. Seemed more important even than the eye as a tool sometimes.

Mab didn’t know about namshiel until Dresden called marcone sir Baron. Shouldn’t people like her and one eye or Derek as sensed this kind of thing?

Cristos? Is black council separate to nemesis. Is he not black council. He played it loyal. He could have popped the black staff from behind and the outsiders win. How did nemesis or outsiders influence the titan? We never discuss people summoning outsiders/corner hounds again.

This post has been edited by Cause: 10 October 2020 - 01:46 AM

[D'rek]

Cause, on 10 October 2020 - 12:59 AM, said:

What to make of the white court all running around in magical armor cloth? Where did they get this kind of power? Also white courts vampires are badass. Maybe stronger even stronger than red court or black court vampires in short bursts. The white court and Lara though seemed to just keep going all night without any of those pesky moral problems like feeding on mortals in front of Harry.

Wouldn't be the first time the white court vamps' strength/endurance/power/etc have varied wildly as the book wills it...

Cause, on 10 October 2020 - 12:59 AM, said:

The faeries kidnapped children and made them child soldiers? Dresden just kinda ignored this one actually.

It is indeed a bit weird that this line was tossed in yet Harry basically ignored it. Something lost in the editing/split of the book into two, perhaps? (Just like there was a big thing of Harry taking Murgphy's gun and seemingly-divine-coincidence showing him the extra ammunition... and then he never used it.)

Though they're not really abducted children, they're young fairies, or perhaps young half-fairies. Recruiting them from winter's various wyld subjects to be trained into warriors is one of of Molly's jobs as Winter Maiden (see: Cold Case). I'd speculate that the fully trained ones were all at the Outer Gates, but they needed more forces so Molly went and gathered up all the ones currently in training.

Cause, on 10 October 2020 - 12:59 AM, said:

The fomor turned out to be a bit silly. Listen being high competent and sort of managing up was always a thing but king corb turned out to be an idiot. His army also not that scary. The titan using the eye to crush points of hardened resistance was supposed to be their shaved knuckle in the hole but truthfully the tian seldom intervened. The fomor army was ten thousand? The twenty thousand winter troops who are separate from guarding the gate should have been enough to wipe them out, throw in Odin and Marcone and Svartelves! Mabs trick about being in twenty places at once killing everything was more impressive army vs army than the eye. I mean this is only really a thought in hindsight but the fomor army was more a chance for everyone to show how cool they were by killing fomor in unique ways rather than showing off how scary the fomor were

Yeah, the whole thing was a bit... uneven. Big dramatic fight between River and Harry vs a squad of the Hunters... and a couple chapters later 6 ordinary, untrained humans with shotguns can apparently take down a Hunter squad no problem.

Cause, on 10 October 2020 - 12:59 AM, said:

Drakul was fun to meet and Harry is bound to go over after him and to destroy wild bill and toshiros bodies. How did he turn them though? I didn’t realize he could turn people against their will. Perhaps I misremember. Also did he turn them as them or are wizard corpses just cooler than regular corpses. The idea of 7 sorcerers raising a 1000 corpses was also more magical warfare than anything else we saw. We are always told time and rituals are the strongest weapons but we saw none.

Black Court Vampires aren't turned while alive, or at least don't have to be. They're reanimated from corpses. But apparently they do still have some personality/memory of who they were before, but I guess it's unclear as to what extent that really goes (the black court vampire from one of the short stories wanted personal revenge on people she had a grudge against from before she died/was turned, for example).

Cause, on 10 October 2020 - 12:59 AM, said:

I think we got confirmation that the black staff is the walking stick.

Definitely

Cause, on 10 October 2020 - 12:59 AM, said:

Why do you think mother summer is a human?

Aren't all the Sidhe some degree of mortal, and all the Queens former humans? (Hmm, except maybe not Mother Winter)

Cause, on 10 October 2020 - 12:59 AM, said:

I need to go back and double check but when confronted by butters who seems to speak as an angel, the titan seem to imply the Christian god was a fake? How dare you presume to command me or some such.....

I thought she was sort of implying that the christian god was some former titan or titan-like creature that eschewed its heritage and transformed itself into a role/mantle shepherding humanity.

Cause, on 10 October 2020 - 12:59 AM, said:

Okay so I thought Mac was actually an outsider who quit the game, but he is a neutral falllen angel?

Nah, I think he's gotta be something celtic/gaelic. Plenty of legendary folk figures with names starting with Mac there, and a lot of the Dresden Files stuff all comes from that sphere (Fomor, Tuatha, Ethniu, Merlin, Camelot, Morgiana, the council's base in Edinburgh, etc etc)

[champ]

D, on 09 October 2020 - 03:02 PM, said:

champ, on 09 October 2020 - 02:50 PM, said:

D, on 09 October 2020 - 04:17 AM, said:

amphibian, on 08 October 2020 - 10:37 PM, said:

I am frustrated with the lack of interaction in this book with Mother Winter and Mother Summer. Not because I want the mysteries all revealed now, but because things like a Titan with the Eye of Balor would presumably need their input.

I know there's already many balls being juggled, yet it seems like two of the most powerful entities alive - one of whom is definitely a human (Mother Summer) - were ignored in a way that doesn't make sense given that Mab, Titania, Sarissa, Fix, Molly, and Dresden were all prepared to give their lives on the battlefield.

Hmm, my impression of the Mothers the two times we've seen them prior was that it's not in their nature to get directly involved in... well, anything, really.

There was the scene with McCoy using the black staff and darkness coalesced into the shape of a witch with a crooked nose, I thought that could be a representation of Mother Winter and the black staff could be a conduit for her power.


But aye, probably the most we'll see for now is indirect action if any.

Oh, the Blackstaff is definitely Mother Winter's "walking stick" that Mother Summer mentions in Cold Days her having "lost". But that sort of giving letting a mortal steal a powerful tool generations ago is probably the closest involvement they can get. The Mothers showing up in-person to do battle just doesn't seem like something they are even capable of doing in the role they have... or it's like Ferrovax and would have horrific consequences if they did.

Aye, I had remembered that part about the "walking stick," just wasn't sure if that was her acting indirectly in the battle.


If McCoy "stole" the walking stick, it will obviously have an echo with Hades and his vault.

D, on 10 October 2020 - 04:08 AM, said:

Cause, on 10 October 2020 - 12:59 AM, said:

I need to go back and double check but when confronted by butters who seems to speak as an angel, the titan seem to imply the Christian god was a fake? How dare you presume to command me or some such.....

I thought she was sort of implying that the christian god was some former titan or titan-like creature that eschewed its heritage and transformed itself into a role/mantle shepherding humanity.

I thought it could also be a comment against the claim that the Christian God is the one true God. Like bitch, please, you can claim what you want...


Another random thought, with how Gard could fuck up Ethniu's achilles tendon... was that just a general weakness? Or a weakness of Titanic Bronze armour? Or was it the armour of Achilles...

[Cause]

I took the Achilles heel thing to just be that it’s a smart point to attack, the titan at this point had battled Mab, Titania, erlking and one eye and was showing visible signs of being tired. So when hard came in and and did her special move it was enough to get through her weakened will. No idea how they make those runes but they seem to be like stored ritual magic. Very powerful once off attacks

No idea for sure since we weren’t told much but I suspect that gard could not have repeated that trick. Still a bit shocking that she of all people got first blood though. She doesn’t seem to be that powerful but again the idea seems to be that one eye and his people are about being prepared. Not being the biggest heavy weights.

Just realized that hard having lost Hendricks also creates a source of help for Dresden if he perhaps goes after trying to ‘rescue’ Murphy.

Though the Lara Molly tension throughout the books suggests Molly is still very much in lust or love with Dresden. Killing Murphy might have been plot necessary to clear the field for the Dresden Molly match if that’s the real end game.

Wonder if Lara can touch Dresden. Murphy may be dead but that doesn’t mean Dresden doesn’t love her

[amphibian]

Butcher wrote on the forums that Mother Summer became such during recorded human history. I think she's human.

Mother Winter is the original and has been there before humans were a thing.

[D'rek]

champ, on 10 October 2020 - 02:47 PM, said:

Aye, I had remembered that part about the "walking stick," just wasn't sure if that was her acting indirectly in the battle.


If McCoy "stole" the walking stick, it will obviously have an echo with Hades and his vault.

Not sure if it was outright said in the books or not, but I don't think McCoy is the one who stole/"stole" the blackstaff. That role seems to have existed for a while in the White Council, so presumably someone in the council long before McCoy obtained it and it has been passed down from Blackstaff wizard to Blackstaff wizard for centuries.

[champ]

Decent interview - some takeaways from the interview:

• Series will be 25 books in total
• The 22nd book will most likely be the time travel book
• Goodman Grey could potentially be a future protagonist for the series as Butcher loves the world too much to abandon it

[Cause]

That man is not Jim butcher! He doesn’t have a long scruffy black beard and no leather duster.

[Tattersail_]

I watched it all

[Cause]

Also Harry Dresden told gard his full name? Isn’t that magical suicide? I know that mortals names change as they change but I’m not a wizard so don’t know what that means but seemed odd.

[champ]

There is also another interview here, though longer...



I haven't watched that one yet.

Cause, on 11 October 2020 - 03:56 PM, said:

Also Harry Dresden told gard his full name? Isn't that magical suicide? I know that mortals names change as they change but I'm not a wizard so don't know what that means but seemed odd.

I thought that too but maybe their shared grief in that moment is enough to save off misuse. Also the way in which Dresden used his name, in his er, "vow" to Odin, there could be some honour bound shenanigans there, I think Odin wouldn't be best pleased for Gard to go throwing about Dresden's name either considering how important he will be to future events... Or that could be a load of bollocks and she uses it to her advantage later down the line.


I think you also mentioned the Librarians, Cause. I agree with you there, felt strange introducing a new group so late in the day with not even a hint of them before considering how high level it seems they are going to be...

[polishgenius]

Cause, on 11 October 2020 - 03:56 PM, said:

Also Harry Dresden told gard his full name? Isn’t that magical suicide? I know that mortals names change as they change but I’m not a wizard so don’t know what that means but seemed odd.

It wasn't meant to be wise, it was a grief-and-anger driven flex. 'Even Odin armed with my name won't be able to stop me if he hurts Murphy'. But I also think it's potentially a future plot point in the reverse. I reread the first few books recently and I realised that one demon from the very start has most of Dresden's name already. Now that plot point might be dropped but I think there's a good chance it's not and we end up with a situation where a demon's name-based influence over Harry is countered by Gard (or Odin), with the same.

[JPK]

So, I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up yet and it's bigger arc stuff so tinfoil hat time.

Elaine is still the favorite candidate for Kumori, right? Because I'm positive she's infected with Nemesis, and may actually be patient zero. Whatever DuMorne did to her during the bit when he summoned He Who Walks Behind to go after Harry infected her. She then reappears in Summer Knight in the Summer Court where we now how that Aurora was infected and then spread it to Maeve. I think Maeve got Lea, and Lea spread it to the infected Denarian.

Thoughts?

[amphibian]

That's a very good theory. I think we'll find that Elaine is a star born too.

I would hate it if Cowl was Dresden time traveling.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 14 October 2020 - 12:22 AM

[D'rek]

JPK, on 13 October 2020 - 11:54 PM, said:

So, I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up yet and it's bigger arc stuff so tinfoil hat time.

Elaine is still the favorite candidate for Kumori, right? Because I'm positive she's infected with Nemesis, and may actually be patient zero. Whatever DuMorne did to her during the bit when he summoned He Who Walks Behind to go after Harry infected her.

Well, maybe. Morgan speculated in Journal that DuMorne could have been infected by Nemesis and passed it on to Harry. But then again, if Harry wasn't infected by DuMorne then Elaine might not be either. We don't even know for sure that DuMorne was... he just seems that way since he was evil and had some connection to He Who Walks Behind (or, at least, we believe DuMorne sent He Who Walks Behind after Harry... but even that could be mis-conjecture).

So far, Elaine hasn't acted "contrary to her nature" in any way, as far as I can tell, so we just can't be sure.

Even if Elaine were Nemesis'd, though, I'm not so sure that there needs to be a Cowl/Kumori-to-Nemesis connection. Yes, they gave Morgana's athame to Lea, but they also seem to have their own motives in Dead Beat. I feel like we'll end up finding out that Cowl/Kumori have been sometimes working with/for the Walkers, but are ultimately independent of them... kinda like Ethniu had partnered with the Walkers but doesn't seem to have actually been Nemesis'd.

JPK, on 13 October 2020 - 11:54 PM, said:

She then reappears in Summer Knight in the Summer Court where we now how that Aurora was infected and then spread it to Maeve. I think Maeve got Lea, and Lea spread it to the infected Denarian.

I thought it went to Lea first from Morgana's athama, and then Lea to Maeve?

We don't actually know that Thorned Namshiel was ever Nemesis'd. We still don't really know why the attack on Arctis Tor happened at all, really, or who else was there.