[polishgenius]

This time with actual doom.


Let's get the big one out of the way: MURPHY! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I'm kind of sceptical that she'll never come back though even though Butcher outright stated she cannot.

She shoulda gone down fighting though. It was kind of Fridgy the way she got killed by Rudolf just to have Harry lose his shit and have to be taken and talked down, for foreshadowing later in the series.

I'm not sure Marcone as a Denarian really makes sense- surely someone woulda noticed before now? But characterwise it both mostly makes sense and serves as a timely reminder that he's not a good guy.

Anyway the battle itself was FUCKING. EPIC. Goes down as an all-timer fantasy battle. Butters and Sanya MVPs. Not really an awful lot to say about it right now but seriously.



Harry being booted from the White Council is kinda expected. Harry being put under Doom of Ebenezar is harsh.



Other thoughts as they come to me I guess.

[amphibian]

I think we're set for an Orpheus/Eurydice situation with Murphy.

[Sindriss]

Think Murthy is gone for good. Was a epic moment in the book and really felt the pain that dresden went through. Perhaps controversial, but I'm okay with her being out of the books. Was getting tired of how she always had to force respect out of extremely strong characters and never backing down. And it was just ridiculous how she would fight evenly with einjarhen vikings that were 100kgs heavier or something.

Anyway, great book, read the last 40% of the book in one go. Going to be pretty interesting to see how dresden starts to build up his own faction operating out of his new castle, as a counter-influence to Marcone I suppose.

Don't think he will get married to Lara, but for sure the "engagement" will cause strong reactions in the white council and with his grand father. Hope we also get to see the reaction from blackstaff and listen-to-wind when they recover from the injuries and see what votes have been forced through.

[Cyphon]

Did anyone else find the tech references, like swiping right in tinder, really jarring?

Hadn't considered the Ebenezer angle on the engagement to Lara. That will really help with the blackstaff clause on Harry getting kicked out.

Decent dresdencrack, I do kind of feel the focus was all on the action and so some polish was missing.

At least this book wasn't as sleazy.

[Abyss]

They said Murphy couldn't come back as an Eijheinjar til everyone forgets her.
They didn't say anything about her coming back as a Valkyrie.
...which was also her call sign when she went to back Harry up before the park.



...Harry's callsign was 'Booster Gold' btw... i may have peed on myself laughing at that.

[D'rek]

The part with Drakul was my favourite. We all knew Mavra was going to show back up at some point, great to have the "oh no!" of her unexpectedly reappearing turn into an "oh fuck!" moment with the realization she's the lowest-level baddie in her group.

[Sindriss]

Really enjoyed that part also Drek. Drakul seems like a proper badass.

One highlight of the book was when Mab announced the wedding of Lara and Dresden. I haven't laughed out loud from a book the past decade I think, but that scene got me good.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Sindriss, on 02 October 2020 - 10:02 AM, said:

Think Murthy is gone for good. Was a epic moment in the book and really felt the pain that dresden went through. Perhaps controversial, but I'm okay with her being out of the books. Was getting tired of how she always had to force respect out of extremely strong characters and never backing down. And it was just ridiculous how she would fight evenly with einjarhen vikings that were 100kgs heavier or something.

Finished the book this morning and completely agree. It was getting more and more difficult to believe the situations she fought in. I don't dislike the character but I've never been all that wild about her either so not too bothered either way. I do suspect there were one too many Valkyrie hints dropped for her to be gone for good though.

I enjoyed Battle Ground more than Peace Talks - I think the late-game split showed in that some editing polish was missing, but all in all it's a good addition and I enjoyed it.

Butters staring down Ethniu and that whole section where Harry is considering the nature of faith and the Swords of the Cross was probably one of my favourite bits. I had a full on heart-in-mouth moment before the Carpenter house vision was revealed to have been staged.

Harry getting kicked from the Council was pretty predictable, although I am wondering if his relationship with Ebenezar is ever going to be resolved at this point. Butcher seems to be throwing up more and more roadblocks to them reaching an accord, this engagement to Lara being the latest.

Marcone the Denarian.... meh. It makes sense but I just felt a bit "do we need this?" when I read it. Having said that, the eventual Harry-Marcone stand off did need Marcone to have a jump in power, since Harry has had one, and I can't help but think that future scenes between Marcone and Nicodemus are going to be a hoot to read.

Really liked Molly in this book, and that she finally went home. Michael's reaction was..... ah Michael is just the best.

Christmas Eve was lovely too.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 06 October 2020 - 07:02 AM

[Cyphon]

I forget, is there disagreement between Marcone's denarian and Nicodemus?

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I can't remember to be honest (due a re-read at some point). I just can't imagine Marcone taking orders lightly.

[Tattersail_]

Marconi was captured and nearly killed by the Denarians. They must have turned him then

[glasseye]

Tattersail_, on 06 October 2020 - 07:30 AM, said:

Marconi was captured and nearly killed by the Denarians. They must have turned him then

Feels to me that Marconi would be more proactive in getting a coin, especially as he isn't dominated by his fallen angel and seems to have a partnership like Nicodemus.

My theories are that either the kidnapping wasn't what it seemed and that Marconi was offered and accepted a coin then and everything else was for show or Marconi sought out a coin after it happened.

[D'rek]

IIRC, Namshiel's coin was the one that Michael was holding onto when he got injured during the battle with the denarians at Demonreach and it went missing sometime between there and when Harry next sees him. Harry presumes Marcone did something with it during the helicopter ride back and confronts him about it. Marcone says/implies that Gard had taken it to Vadderung, but it seems that was a deflection.

Regardless, I get the sense (might have to re-read Skin Game though) that Marcone/Namshiel have been keeping this hidden from the other denarians and Nicodemus has no idea where Namshiel is currently.

[glasseye]

D, on 06 October 2020 - 01:01 PM, said:

IIRC, Namshiel's coin was the one that Michael was holding onto when he got injured during the battle with the denarians at Demonreach and it went missing sometime between there and when Harry next sees him. Harry presumes Marcone did something with it during the helicopter ride back and confronts him about it. Marcone says/implies that Gard had taken it to Vadderung, but it seems that was a deflection.

Regardless, I get the sense (might have to re-read Skin Game though) that Marcone/Namshiel have been keeping this hidden from the other denarians and Nicodemus has no idea where Namshiel is currently.

Thanks for that, saves me a reread. It also chimes with me as being fitting for Marcone's character.

[champ]

glasseye, on 06 October 2020 - 11:29 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 06 October 2020 - 07:30 AM, said:

Marconi was captured and nearly killed by the Denarians. They must have turned him then

Feels to me that Marconi would be more proactive in getting a coin, especially as he isn't dominated by his fallen angel and seems to have a partnership like Nicodemus.

My theories are that either the kidnapping wasn't what it seemed and that Marconi was offered and accepted a coin then and everything else was for show or Marconi sought out a coin after it happened.

Marcone wasn't turned, he suggests he took the power around the time be become the Baron, says something along the lines, "What, you think I'd stop there?"


One part that interested me about that is when we learn about the wards at his castle, Dresden compares them to Demonreach and the OG Merlin's work. Obviously Namshiel had input here so who/what was an influence on Merlin...


The Drakul reveal was epic, a wide eyed oh crap moment...I loved the tidbit that he was a starborn too. One of my favourite parts of the book.


I am loving all this starborn info drips too, what the hell are the stars and stones, why do they need to be powered and what does it all mean, any one any ideas? Obviously we've learnt of the planetary alignment birth, the strenght this gives Harry over the Outsiders... what is expected of him? Self-sacrifice at the end of it all?


When I first read the Murph scene it didn't really cut me up at all, mainly because I thought that there was no way in hell that she will not be seen again in the series. Even after reading the end I still think there is a chance we will see her again... Valkyrie / time travel book etc.


But even if that is her gone, surprisingly it wouldn't really bother me and I thought I would. With where the series is heading she would have needed a serious upgrade to be able to keep pace...


Anything in this book with Butters, Molly and Toot was awesome!!


P.S.Fuck the white council!

This post has been edited by champ: 06 October 2020 - 01:35 PM

[Vengeance]

I loved the bit at the end when Mab tells him that the council is sheep and he is a wolf. They they are right to be afraid of him and implies that her and him are going to be doing this for a long long time. It also goes to show that while the council may think that they are on the same footing as the rest of the members of the accords. They really aren't.


Also the council is stupid as shit to threaten the Man who just Bound a TITAN to his will, plus is the winter knight, Oh and potentially has the eye of balor. They still want to treat him as a regular human who they can control and threaten.

[Cyphon]

So in theory is Namshiel subservient to nicomedus? I'm just wondering if it'd a scenario where they could be played off against each other, or actually this is more power to Nico's arm.

[amphibian]

The Denarians only seem to have a leader in the sense that Nicodemus is the oldest and most successful living host of a fallen angel (Anduriel) and that he keeps scooping up coins of fallen angels without a body to use in his schemes. His estranged wife, Lartessa ("Tessa") is slightly younger age wise and also has a revolving crew of Denarians that she keeps around.

Skin Game saw Marcone/Thorned Namshiel help set up Nicodemus/Anduriel for a world of hurt in that Nicodemus sacrificed his daughter and lost a few coins.

So no, Namshiel appears to have found a host who can stand up to Nicodemus and Anduriel, which makes Namshiel probably the third most dangerous Denarians after Nicodemus and Tessa.

[Cyphon]

Ta amph, that brings things back. Guess it's a divide and conquer situation for Dresden then.

[D'rek]

They said in the past that Namshiel was the strongest magic-user of all the denarians, so it makes sense that Namshiel is pretty "up there" in terms of denarian rankings. Also, Namshiel was part of the force that attacked Arctis Tor (which Harry believed was a "Black Council" operation, but we don't really know that for sure and that was a pre-Nemesis conclusion). When Harry told Nicodemus that one of the denarians was in that attack he seemed to be genuinely surprised by that info, so there's precedent for Namshiel acting independently from the rest, as well.

Like Amph says, there are groups within the denarians that are always working together - Deirdre, Ursiel, and presumably Saluriel are always working with/for Nicodemus; Rosanna, Magog, and some others with/for Tessa. Lasciel and Namshiel both seem to be more independent.

And Tessa definitely didn't agree with Nicodemus' plan in Skin Game (though they reconciled eventually), so the different denarians can definitely be at odds.